Overthrow the D20 System

[wraith_2021]

I'm just wondering why the D20 System is a do or die system?

In my opinion there are a lot of better systems out there that are easier to use and are not as clunky.

The OGL is something which is risky at best, and the system is not something that I would like to even attempt to bend to fit into a setting it just plainly doesn't work for.

So the question is why does it have a huge following?

The answer, because it’s WOTC, and not only is it that, but it has lots of products supporting it using this system.

Now imagine if a system came along which was quick, simple and generally malleable. And the label wasn’t D20 but because it was diverse it allowed any genre of game to use it with plug-in rules.

Now imagine if suddenly the shelves started filling with these non D20 system games, where would the custom go?

It’s easy to see that like most things in life many people are sheep (this is not meant to offend) they follow something simply because others do. They wear labelled clothes because of the mark, and the crowd follows trend, they do things because it’s the in thing, they listen to the same old music because it’s in the charts and shun against anything different.

Shaking down the wall

So how do you overcome this factor?

There are two ways to berry the dead donkey (after all, it’s been flogged to death!)

A conglomerate of games published form different publishers using a single system which allows them to change parts to how their world works while keeping its base mechanics and creation method and using the logo are brought out in a timely manner of each other would sway the populous in this direction, and would give publishers the freedom to include the rules set which is made up for their game in their book without having to go out and but another rule book. The games would be complete and also compatible also would have add-on mechanics which are designed for that game, for instance a game which needs rules for different types of magic may be done and this would no affect the core mechanic allowing for more freedom.

(Sorry if I’m rambling)

The second method would be to each have their own system and company logo etc... But come under a conglomerate logo which shows this product is supported. (Like all fashion trends, the sheep will follow)
This would be more of a Ploy, but would work on the basis that if say 10 or 20 books are released by several companies using the Conglomerate (seal of approval) logo on it they would somehow be related in the eyes of the public, now, just think if a D20 game gained this same logo, or in fact a few D20 games?

Then D20 and other games with this logo (although different systems) would be viewed as somehow being linked together. This would seep the populous of D20 gamers to start looking at these books, even buying them to see why they have been put under this label, after all, if a D20 as this seal and they like it, then these other games with the seal must also be as good, if not better.

Basically what I’m saying is, sheep follow the flock, and if the flock changes direction the sheep will also change direction too.

What’s the views?

[Patrick Chipman]

There's not enough market inertia in the gaming industry to overcome the juggernaut that is D&D. The fact that D&D runs on d20 is why d20 is so popular; it has nothing to do with WotC (who, if you'll recall, was better known for its card games) or any inherent capabilities of the system, which in its full, unmodified form, is next to useless for anything outside epic fantasy.

I suspect that if every (or even many) small press publisher started using the same system, it would improve all of their sales, but honestly, I don't think it'd be that large of an improvement. Very few people who'd buy these games anyway refuse to play them on the grounds that they aren't compatible with a system they already know. The reason so many companies are jumping on the d20 conversions bandwagon is both because they want to maximize profits and because many distributors are avoiding products without that crucial d20 tie-in.

Really, I don't know why people hate d20 so much. In its OGL mode, it's a metasystem, and when properly modified, it can handle a number of genres and styles (realistic, however, just isn't one of them). At its core, it's just a simple resolution mechanic. Why is there so much hatred, other than to take down the Evil Empire?

[wraith_2021]

Originally posted by Patrick Chipman
There's not enough market inertia in the gaming industry to overcome the juggernaut that is D&D. The fact that D&D runs on d20 is why d20 is so popular; it has nothing to do with WotC (who, if you'll recall, was better known for its card games) or any inherent capabilities of the system, which in its full, unmodified form, is next to useless for anything outside epic fantasy.

I suspect that if every (or even many) small press publisher started using the same system, it would improve all of their sales, but honestly, I don't think it'd be that large of an improvement. Very few people who'd buy these games anyway refuse to play them on the grounds that they aren't compatible with a system they already know. The reason so many companies are jumping on the d20 conversions bandwagon is both because they want to maximize profits and because many distributors are avoiding products without that crucial d20 tie-in.

Really, I don't know why people hate d20 so much. In its OGL mode, it's a metasystem, and when properly modified, it can handle a number of genres and styles (realistic, however, just isn't one of them). At its core, it's just a simple resolution mechanic. Why is there so much hatred, other than to take down the Evil Empire?

Its not that the OGL is hated because it is enabling those who just play D&D its hated because until the OGL was released people were buying other games, Call of Cthuluh for one has had to convert to D20 for sales, where as before the OGL was released I never saw Chaosium struggling with sales.

The fact is it’s hated because it halts the creativity of a gaming system, and it forces people to heed to a label, which in my opinion is wrong.

I like the choice of a system; I like the fact that Call of Cthuluh uses a percentile roll and has the mechanics for investigation. I also like the fact that I can play other games with their systems tailored to their games. Does this mean that I hate the D20 system itself or what the OGL stands for?

If several small press game companies were to unite under a system then sales would increase, and if more of these companies united under different systems then you would eventually get some diversity among what was being produced.
Imagine, you have D20 and then 3 or 4 other gaming systems used, you would have a choice again, I do not agree in a market being dominated by one thing, it will grow stale and it will do this very fast, then where is the industry when every game published is under the same label and all those who go out looking for a change can’t find one and give up the goat?

Conformity causes rebellion, and if all conform then gamers will rebel, and all games will be worth jack, change something while you can, and don’t wait for this to happen.

[wraith_2021]

This has made me realise a good point, imagine if several small games companies went under one name, one logo and one system. They would all be independent in the fact that what they sold would be theirs, but would be as a whole in the public eye, so if I brought out a game and it sold well, then the next game would be seen as being as good, it would be as if those in this conglomerate were one company, they would all work to the same goal and the success of each increases the success of the others, several small companies would be capable of attaining the outward goals of the bog boys.

I’m up 4 this if anyone else is..

[flyingmice]

Capital idea! Who's system do we choose? I'm sure everyone of us indie game authors will happily chuck our own systems and use someone else's!

:P

[wraith_2021]

Originally posted by flyingmice
Capital idea! Who's system do we choose? I'm sure everyone of us indie game authors will happily chuck our own systems and use someone else's!

:P

well, as for the system it would be a joint effort, this way we get what we all want, i'm not one for saying mines better, and in the end if we have all made the input and the outcome is a good one what is there to loose?

[Forum Administrator]

Originally posted by wraith_2021
This has made me realise a good point, imagine if several small games companies went under one name, one logo and one system. They would all be independent in the fact that what they sold would be theirs, but would be as a whole in the public eye, so if I brought out a game and it sold well, then the next game would be seen as being as good, it would be as if those in this conglomerate were one company, they would all work to the same goal and the success of each increases the success of the others, several small companies would be capable of attaining the outward goals of the bog boys.

I wouldn't have quoted this whole thing but frankly I didn't have a choice. It's all one sentence.

I would like to point out to you that you are, either accidentally or through some really, really dense osmosis, describing exactly what Swords & Sorcery already is. You do understand that? You also understand that d20 isn't just some evil cabal - that it's essentially exactly what you've just said. The only difference is that at the core of the d20 explosion is the single-most hugest RPG on the planet. What, exactly, do you have up your sleeve that would make someone pick *you* over picking *d20*?

Granted, this sort of scheme would work for Storyteller (#2 and fading) or Palladium (distant #3). Then again the day my fingers type the words 'RIFTS Supplement by Kuma Pageworks' for real will be the day they haul me away in a bag with a toe tag.

It's all nice that you want to rage against the machine, but unless you're the second cousin of J.K. Rowling and can convince her to hand over the RPG rights, you've got nothing but a lot a rage, son.

[wraith_2021]

Sorry I’m a bit tired at the moment its 2:16am over here, and I’m probably spouting sh*t.

Right here is the difference. I never said D20 was all evil, I said why should there be conformity without choice?

Then the afterthought was simply, why have a single game company trying to make it on their own when several hiding behind the same label would look bigger and seem better?

Your right about me being thick (I usually am), but by no means am I raging against the machine. I just don’t want to see the machine turn into a Pentium a la Microsoft of the gaming industry, you Need Windows to do anything. Kind of you need D20 to do anything.

[Patrick Chipman]

There's already a choice. I haven't run into the "if it's not D20, I won't play it" fanboyism that seems to be so rampant in the rest of the world.

If I can find open-minded players, I'm sure others can.

[David Johansen]

A couple months ago, on the Game Design board I was talking about putting together a set of common stats for everyone's s.f. game and throwing a unifiying logo on them. Similar good idea no?

Nope, not at all.

If you really believe that independant game designers can agree on enough similarities between their games to make portability easy, you're living in a dream world. Getting a large group of people to design a single game system is very nearly impossible (or called GURPS which is illustrative of the problem)

My anti d20 plan is to publish my own game, shill the hell out of it and hope I can give away enough free copies that the remaining ones will fit in my (presently flooded) basement. If I can recoup my costs, I'll either support the game with the retrieved investment or publish a different game depending on what people seem to want.

How will this fight d20? Well my game's not at all like d20 and I'm not on the band wagon. Honestly, the bandwagon's a pretty good thing, game stores are doing relatively well right now. Which is good for everyone in the industry and the hobby.

Johansen