I've long held a particular viewpoint about Planescape, and I'd like to air that viewpoint here and see what others think (if, indeed, they think anything about it at all).
My personal belief, given the time that Planescape came out (1994) and given what was taking place in the RPG world at the time (i.e. White Wolf and the World of Darkness putting forth a serious challenge to TSR's primacy in the RPG market), is that Planescape was written in a jaded and cynical manner specifically to try and attract some of the Vampire crowd. The first time I read it, I thought "This is attitude gaming." It's almost as if TSR was trying to say "Hey, White Wolf isn't the only game company in town that can play the world-weary cynicism card. We can do that too!"
Maybe this is an old discussion and this is a subject where everybody but me knows the answer. But I figured I'd throw it in the reactor and see if it melts the rods.
__________________ Reasonable people with good intentions can still disagree over important issues.
-------- The AB and shodan Comedy Hour -- Humorous excerpts from a 10-year conversation between two goofballs, mostly about video games.
I think any similarity in tone/attitude between Planescape and the World of Darkness is more of a reflect of their time, rather than the former intended to be a D&D/fantasy analogue of the latter.
But, I could be entirely wrong, and the designers of Planescape could have been trying for a market niche that they felt hadn't been exploited by TSR at the time.
Though, to be honest, I don't find the tone of Planescape to be that similar to any of the WoD material from that time period. I wouldn't really classify Planescape as "world-weary cynicism". Yes, Planescape was much more 'shades of grey' than anything that TSR/D&D had tried at that point (with the big, honkin' exception of Dark Sun) but the overall tone was more pragmatic than cynical. After all, Planescape was modelled on the notion that the character's beliefs could help shape reality. Which, I guess, would draw some parallels towards Mage: The Ascension, but then that was a pretty 'up-beat' game for the WoD line, no?
What I think is the more likely scenario is that TSR was in a position to try out settings that were a bit less Tolkien-esque fantasy than they'd done prior to the advent of Dark Sun and Planescape, and that the differing tone in those two lines were more the product of non-traditional fantasy influences upon the designers.
This is also a lot of suppostion on my part, however. But, still, I do see influences like Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun, Edward Bryant's Cinnabar, M. John Harrison's Viriconium sequence, and so forth.
(I just noticed that all three of those books are those odd mixtures of sci-fi and fantasy that are hard to classify. I'm sure that might strike a lot of PS fans as odd, but I've always seen the setting as having sort of a steamtech/magictech slant to it. Look at China Mieville's Perdido Street Station for example. That's as close as anything to my mind's eye view of Planescape.)
P.S. Not that Planescape didn't have its share of traditional fantasy elements, mind. It's pretty clear that it's there in spades. I'd list Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar stories as a primary influence on Planescape along with any of the more, 'non-trad' works that I listed above.
Another similarity between Planescape and various White Wolf games is the "Splattyness" of the setting. Vampire has Clans, Werewolf has Tribes (as well as Auspices and Breeds, but those are more akin to class and race), Mage has Traditions and Planescape has Factions. I'm not saying that Planescape was a deliberate attempt at "ripping off" White Wolf or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if Zeb Cook did look at the Storyteller games and thought "Hey, this is a neat concept, I wonder if it could work in D&D."
Another similarity between Planescape and various White Wolf games is the "Splattyness" of the setting. Vampire has Clans, Werewolf has Tribes (as well as Auspices and Breeds, but those are more akin to class and race), Mage has Traditions and Planescape has Factions. I'm not saying that Planescape was a deliberate attempt at "ripping off" White Wolf or anything, but I wouldn't be
surprised if Zeb Cook did look at the Storyteller games and thought "Hey, this is a neat concept, I wonder if it could work in D&D."
Good point, and one that didn't even occur to me when I was considering the similarities between Planescape and WW/WoD games. And it should have, considering that I talked about the similarities between Mage: The Ascension and Planescape w/r/t belief shaping reality. The Factions are a definite analogue to The Traditions.
Out of curiousity, does anyone know what the first game was to make use of "Splats" as a structuring device?
Originally posted by Evanescence Out of curiousity, does anyone know what the first game was to make use of "Splats" as a structuring device?
Well, it would depend on how far one would take the "splat" definition. You could consider D&D's classes as "splats". Going beyond those, I believe various cults were quite important in Runequest, deciding what sort of spells you could learn and what skills you wanted to be good at (in order to become a Rune Lord).
Originally posted by Evanescence I wouldn't really classify Planescape as "world-weary cynicism".
Heh. The authors will be disappointed, then, because they mention on more than one occasion within the Planescape materials that the tone of Planescape is meant to be jaded and cynical. Planars have seen it all. Devils and demons and angels walk the streets of Sigil and even the lowliest resident of the hive just isn't impressed by your little prime world.
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Originally posted by Evanescence What I think is the more likely scenario is that TSR was in a position to try out settings that were a bit less Tolkien-esque fantasy than they'd done prior to the advent of Dark Sun and Planescape, and that the differing tone in those two lines were more the product of non-traditional fantasy influences upon the designers.
Could be, could be. I make no claims that my view is correct; that's why I tossed it out for discussion. But certainly, my first impression (rightly or wrongly) was "TSR is trying to get some customers back from White Wolf."
(It is possibly telling, however, that the official D&D FAQ on the WotC website describes Planescape as "attitude heavy.")
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Originally posted by Evanescence (I just noticed that all three of those books are those odd mixtures of sci-fi and fantasy that are hard to classify. I'm sure that might strike a lot of PS fans as odd, but I've always seen the setting as having sort of a steamtech/magictech slant to it. Look at China Mieville's Perdido Street Station for example. That's as close as anything to my mind's eye view of Planescape.)
Nah, I think most Planescape fans would agree that PS has steampunk and magitech elements to it. Particularly magitech.
__________________ Reasonable people with good intentions can still disagree over important issues.
-------- The AB and shodan Comedy Hour -- Humorous excerpts from a 10-year conversation between two goofballs, mostly about video games.
Heh. The authors will be disappointed, then, because they mention on more than one occasion within the Planescape materials that the tone of Planescape is meant to be jaded and cynical. Planars have seen it all. Devils and demons and
angels walk the streets of Sigil and even the lowliest resident of the hive just isn't impressed by your little prime world.
Oh, jaded I can see quite easily, and there are certain signature characters in Planescape that are cynical, but I don't see the setting itself to be cynical as a primary aspect.
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Originally posted by Afterburner Nah, I think most Planescape fans would agree that PS has steampunk and magitech elements to it. Particularly magitech.
Really?
I used to post quite a bit to a discussion board that was connected to Planewalker.com, and I found a lot of the people there were quite set against any intrusion of such into Planescape.
I know that the original boxset itself makes some case for not using magic/magic items as tech, saying that a crystal ball communications network would destroy the "medieval" flavor of Planescape.
I promptly ignored that, since I didn't think anything about Planescape, particularly Sigil was "medieval" in the least.
Originally posted by Evanescence I used to post quite a bit to a discussion board that was connected to Planewalker.com, and I found a lot of the people there were quite set against any intrusion of such into Planescape.
I can confirm that was the case.
Further, I will assert that PS in general is a little distant from the "magic as technology" aspect of magitech. Au contraire, broad attempts were made to make magic seem unreliable. The central magical contrivance of the settings -- portals -- were unreliable and mysterious. As you travelled to different planes, the behavior of magic changed radically.
Now, Mechanus was a plane that seemed to encapsulate the steampunk feel. But the machines have a distant alien sentience, a bit more like "Maximum Overdrive" than "Castle Falkenstein." And mechanus is just one of the numerous planes that make up the potpouri (sp) of the planes in the PS setting.
Originally posted by Sangrolu
Further, I will assert that PS in general is a little distant from the "magic as technology" aspect of magitech. Au contraire, broad attempts were made to make magic seem unreliable.
I think that the art of diTerlizzi has a lot more to do with the steampunkish attitude than the writing of the setting itself. Almost all of his characters have 'fiddly bits' on them, and generally have a steampunkish look. Also, the presence of the cant in the story gave it a cockney read, which I usually relate in my head to Victorian England (right or no), and thence to steampunk. I had more than a few additions that were steampunkish to Planescape.
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Now, Mechanus was a plane that seemed to encapsulate the steampunk feel.
It's spelled 'potpourri'.
There was a much more steampunkish feel to all of the Planes of Law - Mechanus, Acheron, the Hells even Arcadia (biosteampunk). As I ran it, it was the Lawful planes that had more access to steam than the Chaotic planes, given that the mechanical bits and pieces were susceptible to getting invaded by spirits and such.
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