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[3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of woe

Imban

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Re: [3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of

Never in my home (online) games, but those are highly modded due to gestalt and restricting some of the lamer things spellcasters can get up to. Well, okay, the archivist archer who shoots like 40-some arrows per round was pretty dominating, and due to gestalt, a lot of the fighters in my party have at least a bit of casting or manifesting to their names, but we've had dominating characters who weren't able to cast a single spell before.

In the few RL D&D games I was in years ago, I "realized caster supremacy" at about... 6th level or so, but I wasn't packing Glitterdust or anything - just using a bit of tactics and playing as a full sorcerer with a fairly good Charisma. Really, the impressive one was the time I played a Cleric and outdid the party's fighter line handily, could blast equally with the party's wizard, and could shoot lasers from my eyes. That got me banned from playing a Cleric anymore, whereas they didn't mind me playing a Sorcerer so much. :p
 

Extrakun

Tinker of Games
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Re: [3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of

I may not really well-versed with D&D3 and D&D 3.5, is there a site I can look at such builds? (I am only happened to get interested this issue because I was looking at Myth & Magic and was wondering if it may run into the same problem).
 

Subumloc

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Re: [3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of

My turn: High-level (15th or so) planar game, late 3.5. It was a long campaign and all of us had already switched characters around a bit. One night I show up with a cool character concept I had - a tiefling planar guide, basically a rogue with a splash of diviner and the PrC Unseen Seer (a caster/rogue mix). The high point for the character was getting a divination spell from the ranger list that let him autodraw a map of a large area. We get to the first combat encounter. I have some combat buff spells, but I'm mainly reliant on sneak attack, to which the enemies were immune, so I'm stuck doing 1d6 plus something damage with my crossbow. Meanwhile, the goliath cleric reaches a Strength of about 40 in a round, and starts killing one enemy per round thereby winning the encounter by himself. And that's without getting to the Planar Shepherd Druid.
 

Wields-Rulebook-Heavily

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Re: [3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of

I'm somehow not surprised that people would show up in a thread on when you encountered this issue just to say "I never encountered it and doubt it's real".

Anyway.

For my group it was the druid. A Halfling druid, of all things.

-At level 1, my dog outfought the fighter and tracked better than the ranger.
-At level 2, the ranger quit and played a sorcerer instead.
-At level 3, the dog got even better with Evasion. On top of his regular immunities, of course, like hold and dominate person.
-At level 4, a flaming sphere every encounter made the cleric a little green.
-At level 5, wildshape! Two dogs, all the time. The amount of buffs on the dog got ridiculous.
-At level 6, the fighter quit and played a second Cleric instead. Y'know, to be competitive.
-At level 7, I could summon unicorns. Unicorns get a bunch of healing spells. Very efficient compared to the clerics!
-At level 8, better wild shape. Now I'm a bear. Everyone else just sort of stops summoning things, there's no need.
-At level 9, I killed an entire army of orcs with this. Sorcerer was envious.
-At level 10, my animal companion was a megaraptor.
-At level 11, I was summoning megaraptors.
-At level 12, I could be a plant riding a megaraptor with his megaraptor friends. Plants are immune to so many things.
-At level 13, Tyrannosaurus summons. Yep. Also perfect disguise checks always forever. Rogue had long since quit altogether.
-At level 14, I could have made my animal buddy an elephant, but nah.
-At level 15, I TOO AM A DINOSAUR. Who summons a unicorn who is also a level 7 cleric. Healing worries gone forever.
-At level 16, I can be an elemental! not all that much this changes for me but it sure is a thing.
-At level 17, Shapechange. It felt almost redundant. Both clerics switched to wizards instead so we could have a party of dragons.

And that was that until the campaign ended just after reaching 20. I felt like a cheater the whole time. There was no point during the campaign where I wasn't better than someone else at something they were supposed to be good at, not by effort, but merely by being a Druid.
 
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OldKentuckyShark

Doritos from Japan
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Re: [3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of

I may not really well-versed with D&D3 and D&D 3.5, is there a site I can look at such builds? (I am only happened to get interested this issue because I was looking at Myth & Magic and was wondering if it may run into the same problem).
Honestly, it's not really a "build" you can look at; it's just the way 3.x's core classes worked. It's not a matter of min/maxing, except to the extent that writing "Wizard" on you character sheet is a form of min-maxing.

Consider the 8th level druid. Now, an 8th level druid can do many things, like cast spells or shapeshift, but they also get an animal companion. At 8th level, their animal companion is likely to be a brown bear. Now, a Brown Bear gets 3 attacks a round, is Large (he gets free attacks whenever anyone moves up to him), has a 27 strength, and can make grapple checks as a free action whenever it hits you. An 8th level fighter, for comparison, can only make 2 attacks a round, although he probably has better accuracy and AC and he should have more tricks to use than a bear.

But that's just one of the druid's abilities. The druid can also turn into a brown bear. So every time she wakes up in the morning, whatever else she does, an 8th level druid is, at minimum, 2 brown bears.

Except one of those brown bears can cast spells. There's a feat in the PHB that lets you cast spells while wildshaped without any penalty at all. Oh, and any magic cast on the druid automatically affects its animal companion for free. Druids get many, many spells that benefit animals, so this is a useful power.

So a druid is like two bears, each of them capable of more attacks per round than a fighter, except both bears can fly (Air Walk), both of them have magically enhanced claws, and one of them is throwing lighting bolts and and turning the ground to spikes and summoning more bears.

That's caster supremacy. One guy gets a sword and armor, the other person is an aggressively hegemonizing ursine swarm.
 
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Mark Berryman

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Re: [3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of

My last 3.5 D&D game three level 5 guys a fighter a mage a cleric.

the mage and cleric would save vs X spell the bad guy fighter would then drop them.

this came to ahead with 3 cr 12-13+ encounters in a row ended with save vs spells and impoved int
 

Ithaeur

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Re: [3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of

I HAVE played where my PC dominated the game...but that had nothing to do with power, just game-play (I wasn't playing a caster, I was playing a monk).
But of course it had nothing to do with power; a 3e monk couldn't dominate its way out of a wet paper bag. It's just a terrible class.

Honestly, it's not really a "build" you can look at; it's just the way 3.x's core classes worked. It's not a matter of min/maxing, except to the extent that writing "Wizard" on you character sheet is a form of min-maxing.
Yeah. It's amazing but 3e D&D becomes more balanced if you categorically ban PHB classes and only use ones found in later supplementary books.

One guy gets a sword and armor, the other person is an aggressively hegemonizing ursine swarm.
That's possibly the best one-line summation of the whole druid supremacy issue, ever. :D
 

dzanis

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Re: [3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of

In this thread, tell us about the exact moment in gameplay (in gameplay, that bit is what makes it fun, pouring over rules is nifty but it's all the more horrific to only realize it in a session) when you saw 3e's balance problem come into the light.
Or if you were the god wizard yourself, those stories are also welcome.
The exact moment came, when I played a sorcerer (rare moment, as I mostly do the GMing) and traveling in dangerous provinces (around level 10) where attacks could have been expected many times in a night (that would wear us out) the Rope Trick casted saved a day. And again a day :) That is quite powerful spell.
From that time, when I did GM, i read spell descriptions quite carefully in order to notice a little things that should balance them out...
 

Sage Genesis

Two
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Re: [3e] what was the exact moment you realized Caster Supremacy? Share your tales of

an aggressively hegemonizing ursine swarm.
That is one of the best lines I've heard in a long time.


Anyway, my experience with caster supremacy: When 3e was still new we sat down and played. I had a monk. One of the other players, a cool and casual kind of guy, had a cleric. There was also a rogue, a paladin, a barbarian, and a sorcerer. At first level everything was fine. But with every passing level the cleric's power grew more out of hand. He eventually became stupidly more powerful than the rest. The barbarian eventually wizened up and rerolled as a wizard instead, and the sudden surge in power he enjoyed was frankly obscene.

I played that monk until about level 16 or 17 I think. She retired due to story reasons (married and had a kid and all) but my next character was a cleric as well. All of a sudden I was like a god. My monk's main contribution was tumbling into flanking position so that the rogue could sneak attack. My cleric on the other hand could annihilate entire encounters with a single action. Heck, I even had Leadership and took a sorcerer cohort for more buffing/utility spells. My feat was stronger than my previous character.
 
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