40k in Flames

Scutarii

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#1
So, I am not personally a fan of the feel of 40 the game but I am a fan of the feel of Flames of War. However lots of people have 40k models and expecting them to buy into a new game just to play is a bit much. Instead I got to thinking how could you use your 40k stuff in Flames of War?

To that end I thought a bit about Space Marines and...well...it didn't seem that hard to do actually. Be willing to abstract a bit so you don't get the full minutiae.

So, 'late war' Space Marine formation.

Fearless Veteran
Power Armour Special Rule: After a failed infantry save the opponent must pass a firepower check to destroy a stand

HQ: Lieutenant, SMG Stand (aka, bolt pistol), power weapon (reroll to hit in Assault), Tank Assault 4, power armour

Minimum Units = 2 space marine squads

Space marine squads contain 10 troopers in 5 stands
1 stand is the command with 1 Sergeant and 1 regular marine, it's a Rifle/MG team, power armour
2 stands of normal marines with 2 marines on them, they're Rifle/MG teams, power armour
1 Special Weapon stand (make up some rules for a few different special weapons, plasma, flamer, etc.), 2 marines, power armour
1 Heavy Weapon stand (make up some rules for a few different heavy weapons, missile launcher, etc.), 2 marines, power armour

===

But what to do about the big stuff like Carnifexes and the like!?

Treat a Carnifex like an armoured vehicle (with a high remount value when in synapse control, bailed out represents the creature cowering after being harmed) and treat the close combat weapons like shooting attacks with really short range : Range 0-1", AT14, Firepower 3+, make 2 attacks in Assault

===

I dunno, anyone every tried doing this conversion? Thoughts?
 

Base Delta Zero

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#2
Well, for starters... I only read Flames of War a while back, but... I'm pretty sure that's too weak for Space Marines.
Do you want something that the Americans and Germans can concievably fight, or do you want something accurate? In the latter case...

Space Marine Basics
  • Never retreat. Otherwise count as Fearless.
  • 5/6th chance to hit.
  • Bolters have ROF 1, Anti-Tank 12, and Firepower 5+, 40cm range. Bolt pistols, are similar but 20cm range.
  • Though they act as infantry, they have armor - 18 'Front' and 12 'Side/Top'.
  • A Space Marine Squad is counted as a Company-Level element.
  • Move 30 cm. Not subject to bogging down.
  • Leaders may have a Bolt Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon (Reroll Assault), or upgrade the CCW to a Power Weapon (Tank Assault 10, Reroll Assault) or Power Fist (Tank Assault 20, Reroll Assault).
  • I don't think it's strictly an option, but never surrender, nor accept surrender.
Tacticals
  • Come in squads of 5, divided into 3 stands - the leader, and two other groups of two. One can be upgraded to a 1/2 special weapon. One can be upgraded to a 1/2 heavy weapon. Can only be purchased in pairs.
Devastators
  • Come in squads of 5, divided into 3 stands - the leader, and two other groups with 1/2 heavy weapons.
  • Move 25cm
Assault
  • Come in squads of 5, divided into three stands - the leader, and two other groups of two. All are equipped with bolt pistols and close combat weapons.
  • May make an additional 50cm move once per round.
  • If this is used to assault, defenders take a -2 penalty to hit.
Special Weapons!
  • Special Weapons Teams can make a normal bolter attack or use the special weapon.
  • Meltagun: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 30, Firepower 4+, 20cm range. Anti-Tank 40, Firepower 2+ within 10cm range or when assaulting.
  • Plasma Gun: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 25, Firepower 5+, 40cm range. On a natural 6 (or 1 in assault) to hit, weilder must immediately roll 5+ or die.
  • Combat Shotgun: RoF 2, Anti-Tank 5, 20cm range, Firepower 5+. Firepower 3+ when assaulting.
  • Astartes Grenade Launcher: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 20, Firepower 4+, 40cm Range.
Heavy Weapons!
  • All Heavy Weapons Teams move 25cm. Heavy Weapons Teams can make a normal bolter attack or use the heavy weapon.
  • Heavy Bolter: RoF 3, Anti-Tank 15, Firepower 5+, 60cm range.
  • Lascannon: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 35, Firepower 3+ (5+ vs Infantry), 1m Range
  • Multi-Melta: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 30, Firepower 4+, 40cm range. Anti-Tank 40, Firepower 2+ within 20cm range.
  • Missile Launcher: RoF 1 Anti-Tank 25, Firepower 4+, 80cm Range, Anti-Air.
  • Plasma Cannon: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 25, Firepower 3+, 60cm range. On a natural 6 (or 1 in assault) to hit, weilder must immediately roll 5+ or die.
 

Scutarii

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#3
I dunno, I'm used to seeing marines die when people whack them with lead pipes and spanners with nails in the teeth.
 

Petter Wäss

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#4
I dunno, I'm used to seeing marines die when people whack them with lead pipes and spanners with nails in the teeth.
The difference between fluff-Marines who can comfortably take 50 men in a fight, see in the dark, sneak better than any thief, take anti-tank shots without blinking, are immune to small-arms fire and are generally world-beaters, and rules-marines, who are slightly tougher and stronger heavy infantry
 

Base Delta Zero

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#5
I dunno, I'm used to seeing marines die when people whack them with lead pipes and spanners with nails in the teeth.
Orks are also wildly superhuman, and likely have a rather insane anti-tank assault bonus. But I suppose lower assault armor could make sense.

We also know that, when you're talking about things that can reliably penetrate Astartes Power Armor, you're talking about 40k anti-tank weapons, which are superior to anything fielded on ground vehicles in WWII. Autocannons are superior to WWII tank guns, and they're... well, autocannons. (Sometimes bolters can, but by game mechanics and most fluff they cannot... and bolters are 30mm armor-piercing rockets) I mean... You can kill a Space Marine with sustained lasgun fire, eventually something's going to saturate and break through in the right place. But I feel that this falls into the same level of likelihood as it 'it is conceivable that a sustained barrage of .30-06 rounds will break through a tank's viewing window.' That doesn't mean that kind of golden bullet happens enough to model. (Also, Lasguns are *also* incredibly powerful). Hence the double armor, you can send WWII era munitions at a space marine all day, you'll be lucky to scratch them with anything short of the best anti-tank guns of the era. You might have a chance if you hit a weak point.

Hmm. Working with the typical autocannon as AT 18, which I feel is appropriate... 15/16 armor would probably be more reasonable.
15 for general purposes, and like... 6 for things that can hit vulnerabilities, i.e. assault and defensive fire (but not just shooting from the side)? A critical hit mechanic might be necessary (when a unit hits on a 6, they add 6 to their anti-tank?)
Furthermore, consider what Astartes are, conceptually - they're canonically super rare, super elite troops that are used in breakthroughs against heavy resistance, as well as lightning operations in the enemy's rear. They shouldn't be compared to normal infantry - they are, fundamentally, small walking tanks, and should be treated as such.

I may do something with Guard, they're more... normal.
 

Base Delta Zero

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#6
The difference between fluff-Marines who can comfortably take 50 men in a fight, see in the dark, sneak better than any thief, take anti-tank shots without blinking, are immune to small-arms fire and are generally world-beaters, and rules-marines, who are slightly tougher and stronger heavy infantry
Well, they can't take 40k anti-tank shots without blinking, but yeah, they're functionally immune to small arms fire, and can comfortably take 50 men in a fight if they only have small arms (for that matter, so can anyone with power armor. This is why plasma guns exist). This is... pretty consistently represented in the 40k RPG mechanics, but yeah, tabletop is very compressed.
It's just that when you say 'now have them fight GIs' its a few bridges too far.
 

Petter Wäss

I am agape with fnords
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#7
Well, they can't take 40k anti-tank shots without blinking, but yeah, they're functionally immune to small arms fire, and can comfortably take 50 men in a fight if they only have small arms (for that matter, so can anyone with power armor. This is why plasma guns exist). This is... pretty consistently represented in the 40k RPG mechanics, but yeah, tabletop is very compressed.
It's just that when you say 'now have them fight GIs' its a few bridges too far.
Depends on who is writing. I've read a few stories that has them take Krak missiles and Autocannon shells and walk away from it. Maybe not smiling, but alive.

And of course rules-wise, a Lasgun (which is a *amazing* gun, if not with a over-abundance of stopping power) is the exact same thing as a autogun which is... just a gun.
Rules-wise you could absolutely kill a marine with a couple of dozen 30-year war Muskets (S3* AP0, Range 12"), because of the level of abstraction. And Flames of War is again, a abstracted game.

So I guess it depends on if you want the Marines to fight like in the Tabletop where they are a semi-elite army of heavy infantry or in the fluff, where they can kill hundreds of elite alien fighters** with advanced weapons and not really have to worry about anything 'but running out of ammo, and out-stealth some of the best infilitrators*** in the galaxy, even before the Marines finish their basic training.
Because they are two very different beasts.

*There is no way a musket hit weaker than a guardsman
**Dark Eldar, mostly Kabalites IIRC. They Marines did not run out of ammo, but they came close.
***Also Dark Eldar, specifically Mandrakes vs Scouts
 

Base Delta Zero

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#8
Depends on who is writing. I've read a few stories that has them take Krak missiles and Autocannon shells and walk away from it. Maybe not smiling, but alive.

And of course rules-wise, a Lasgun (which is a *amazing* gun, if not with a over-abundance of stopping power) is the exact same thing as a autogun which is... just a gun.
Rules-wise you could absolutely kill a marine with a couple of dozen 30-year war Muskets (S3* AP0, Range 12"), because of the level of abstraction. And Flames of War is again, a abstracted game.
Well, Autocannons are more for destroying soft-skinned vehicles and supporting infantry with HE, but yeah, a Krak missile should kill them.
And of course, you can take out a Marine with a spitball (S1, AP0, Range 6") in Tabletop, because it's that kind of abstracted. Of course, part of that is because it has a fairly wide range of weapons.

I suppose the smaller diversity of FoW options inspires me to want to make things less... compacted? It probably won't work, and 'World War II armies with 40k skins' is far more practical, but... eh.

Also, don't gretchin have muskets that do hit weaker than Guardsmen?
 
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Base Delta Zero

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#9
Ah. Looks like I seriously misunderstood how shooting works. In that case, Space Marines get +1 to hit in shooting, but also have +1 to hit them. Firepower against them is modified by +1 (they are easier to kill, being one (albeit extraordinarily tough) person instead of a machine and crew).

Unfortunately, I am now having fun and cannot be stopped.

The Imperial Guard!
  • Reluctant/Trained, as a rule, though this will vary. (A crack Cadian detachment (Confident/Veteran) is a very different beast from the Valhallan New Model (Reluctant/Conscript), is very different from the Catachans (Reluctant/Veteran)
  • Are, for most intents and purposes, normal infantry. They move like normal infantry, take cover like normal infantry, make morale/assault rolls like normal infantry.
  • Unlike WWII troops, they have (quite good) body armor, but it's not nearly up to the standards of power armor, and doesn't provide reliable protection. Enemy firepower is reduced by 1 if they are in bulletproof cover. If not, they still impose a firepower test, but improve firepower by 3 (so Firepower 6 has a 2/3 chance to kill them). This does not apply if the attack has Anti-Tank 8 or more. It goes right through without requiring a roll.
  • Also unlike WWII troops, are more than casually trained in melee combat. They add 1 to morale rolls in assaults.
  • Most Guardsmen have lasguns. RoF 2 (for squads), AT 6, Firepower 6, 40cm.
  • Basic infantry come in platoons. These contain a Platoon Command base, 2-10 'normal' bases (each representing ~5 soldiers), and 0-3 Heavy Weapons bases. Standard infantry bases can be upgraded with a heavy or special weapon. This weapon is *added* to their normal attacks.
Heavy Weapons
  • Come in seperate bases, or attached to an infantry squad. In both cases, they move as medium guns (probably)
  • Heavy Bolter: RoF 3, Anti-Tank 14, Firepower 5+, 60cm range
  • Lascannon: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 30, Firepower 4+ (6 vs Infantry), 1m range.
  • Missile Launcher: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 24, Firepower 4+, 2m; Homing +2 to hit (This is, obviously, under the assumption that 40k missile launchers are actually missile and not rocket launchers. If you're of the opposite opinion, the variant under Space Marines works)
  • Autocannon: RoF 2, Anti-Tank 18, Firepower 4+, 60cm range.
  • Mortar: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 15, Firepower 3+, 2m range; Indirect Fire Only
Special Weapons
  • Meltagun: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 30, Firepower 4+, 20cm range. Anti-Tank 40, Firepower 2+ within 10cm range or when assaulting.
  • Plasma Gun: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 26, Firepower 6, 40cm range. On a natural 1 to hit, weilder must immediately roll 3+ or die. (Deliberately more likely to kill weilder than Space Marine version, but both should have Firepower 6.
  • Grenade Launcher: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 18, Firepower 5+, 40cm Range. (Deliberately inferior to Astartes version)
  • Flamer: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 4, Firepower 2+, 10cm Range. +2 to hit. Usable when assaulting or being assaulted. Infantry save on 5+.

Leman Russ Tank
  • There are many variants, this is the standard one.
  • Slow Tank. Armor 26/18/12
  • Battlecannon: RoF 1, Anti-Tank 28, Firepower 2+, 150 cm.
  • Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter or Lascannon.
  • Pintle-Mounted (AA?) Heavy Stubber. RoF 3, Anti-Tank 4, Firepower 6; 50cm
  • Can add left/right Heavy Bolter Sponsons. This adds two independent heavy bolters, but reduces side/rear armor by 2 each.
Commissar
  • Special command attachment. Fearless/Veteran. Bolt Pistol. Comes in normal and Lord varieties.
  • Lord Commissars take three hits to kill - a successful hit rerolls their last save at. A failure automatically inflicts another hit, and allows another reroll. (This isn't, strictly, realistic - but Characters are very significant bit of 40k. Maybe nearby troops take the hit for them, maybe they're lucky, or maybe their cybernetics are just that tough. Still, a character can be killed in one hit)
  • A Commissar can be attached to a platoon or the company commander.
  • When attached to a platoon, if that platoon ever fails a morale check, the Commissar executes the nearest base, and the platoon rerolls. This can only happen once per morale check. This takes place after the normal reroll for having a nearby platoon commander. This may seem obvious, but Commissars will never execute themselves, other commissars, or attached non-Guard units.
  • When attached to the company commander, should the company fail its rout check, the Commissar executes the company commander and attempts to restore order. Each Platoon makes a morale check, and may retreat seperately. The Company takes a -1 penalty to morale checks, but fights on. From now on, instead of a company rout check, each platoon makes a rout check. (This can benefit from rerolls from Platoon Commanders/Commissars). The company is only defeated when every platoon routs individually (or is annihilated).
  • A Lord Commissar can be used as the Company Commander - but they do not offer the normal company commander re-roll bonus (instead executing models if attached). If the Company would make a rout check, instead each platoon makes a rout check, but no penalty is imposed.
  • A Lord Commissar can also be the Platoon commander of a Penal Legion Platoon or Blocking Detachment, if applicable.
 
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