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 [5e] Used to dislike it, love it now, random thoughts

Daz Florp Lebam

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My favorite thing about 13th Age is, as mentioned upthread, the transparency of it's mechanics and the openess in the text about why and how decisions about teh rules were made. It makes the rules both easier to grok and easier to tweak.
 

Vagabundo

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Hmmmmm, this thread speaks to me, a little.
I am a big fan of 4th edition, but think it suffers a bit from bloat and too many tiny bonuses. I was completely turned off by the 5e previews, but I am a big fan of 2e, the version I am currently running.

4E is my favourite, by a fairly large margin, but I also love 2nd edition, Basic and OD&D. Is it worth checking out, or given that 4E is my favourite, is it basically a good game, but not for me?
I'd say probably not. Although there is a lot of stuff they brought from 4e they did so kinda under the radar due to the bad press that edition had.

I'm more like yourself, I think, and it felt like a 3.75 edition with lots of streamlining rather than a 4.5e which is what I wanted. It didn't sit well with anyone when I ran it at my table so we just reverted back to 4e and my players aren't all that interested in the ruleset.

Saying that I'd play it in a heartbeat, but I doubt I run a game in it. 4e is definitely my favourite version of the modern game, and B/X for the classic era.
 

Hedonismbot

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I ran 4e for a long time and loved it. I hadn't had much experience with 5e until a group of work friends asked me to run a game of D&D and they had never tried it before. I spent about an hour trying to figure out how to package the 4e character creation process into something that would be completely newbie-friendly, and though I'm sure it can easily be done I decided that 5e was probably a better starting point.

This was before Xanathar, so the only player-facing material was in the PHB. Since then, I've started a second group of all newbies and 5e has really grown on me. The biggest thing I miss is the 4e DM tools - and how much tighter the encounter math was. I felt really confident with encounter design in 4e, and in 5e I still feel like I'm doing guesswork, but that hasn't stopped me from running and enjoying two games for 2+ years in 5e.
 

Witness123

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4E is my favourite, by a fairly large margin, but I also love 2nd edition, Basic and OD&D. Is it worth checking out, or given that 4E is my favourite, is it basically a good game, but not for me?
Personally, I think the free basic online rules and SRD are worth giving a look as they are free. Between the two, they give you the base classes (and, in my opinion most of the good subclasses, OMMV) and enough to run the game. This should allow you to make an informed decision. If you like what you see, in my opinion, the PHB is worth picking up for several of the subclasses (e.g. Valor Bard, the Battlemaster fighter and additional Cleric domains), additional backgrounds, and some of the spells. The DMG and Monster Manual are worth picking up if you are going to run the game (edit: Actually, if you can get to a bookstore or game store, I would look at the Battlemaster Fighter).

Now with regards to supplements. I have not found most of the supplements to be worth purchasing. This includes Xanathar',which I found to be mediocore at best in terms of worthwhile content to price (I didn't care for 90+%. of the subclasses). However, I felt the same about most WOTC 3e supplements and several of the 4e supplements. On the plus side, 5e (like 3e) has some good third party material if you know where to look. As a 2e fan, you also might be interested in the free conversions of some of the 2e Complete class books from a poster at ENWorld. They good even I have a few quibbles here and there.

(Edit: Robert Schwalb has also released a Warlord class and a Warden class. I have not seen them, but they are a few dollars each).
 
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BeholderThief

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See, the thing about that is that it sounds like you're the kind of person who's included in the 'have the self-awareness needed to mold the social contract around a game' clause. Not everyone is blessed with a DM skilled and experienced enough to do that, and 5e has less of a safety net to catch lacklustre DMing than games that are more of a 'pre-packaged role-playing game experience', as you put it.

Which is kind of an issue, because it leaves 5e as a game that's very newcomer friendly on the player side but demands an experienced and confident hand on the DM side. And if that's what you group looks like, that's fine, but understand that's that not all groups.
Well, you got to start somewhere. I didn't have that self-awareness when I first started DM'ing. I picked it up after years of practice and experience. No one who is new or inexperienced as a DM is going to amazing at it on their first few tries, no matter what edition or system you are playing. The only way to improve is to do it and gain the experience and become better at it.

My first real experience with DM'ing was with 4E and my first few adventures were definitely awkward. It took me several months to reach the point where I was comfortable running a game and able to really get into a groove.

I suppose, some games are harder than others to start with, but from my experience, 5E is definitely closer to the simple end of the spectrum. If time was warped 10 years for me, 5E would've been my first DM'ing experience and I would probably have had the same growing pains.
 

DisgruntleFairy

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Could you say some more about this. Maybe I missed somethings as its released but ... I don't see how that is possible.
How did you get fighters to feel different? How did they feel different? The Champion fighter was the most generic and boring thing in 5e when I read the core books.
 

Zeea

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How did you get fighters to feel different? How did they feel different? The Champion fighter was the most generic and boring thing in 5e when I read the core books.
I'd generally agree that it's the most generic subclass, but feats and weapon/armor choice does have a bigger mechanical impact than I expected they would. Same for Brute, which is basically a revised Champion.
 

Sankarah

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How did you get fighters to feel different? How did they feel different? The Champion fighter was the most generic and boring thing in 5e when I read the core books.
Feats and backgrounds, mostly, but also gear. I was building samurai, as I said, and was doing so with an eye toward historical inspiration (IOW the exact opposite of the thought process that went into the Samurai archetype in Xanathar's, but never mind that). Champion gives two fighting styles, which let me do Archery and another depending on which archetype I was emulating; Great Weapon Fighting for Akodo and Matsu, Dueling for Crane, Defense for Crab, Two-Weapon Fighting for Dragon, etc. This in turn led to different primary equipment choices: The Akodo guy gut a glaive (a war naginata), the Matsu got a greatsword (a dotanuki), the Crane got a longsword (bog standard katana), the Crab got a maul (a tetsubo), the Dragon got long and short swords (katana and wakizashi), etc. Most of the equipment had minor properties; the Akodo's naginata had the Confident and War Leader properties, for instance, while the Matsu had a greatsword that was Hungry and Wicked.

A variety of backgrounds led to all sorts of different skill choices, and I used the Prodigy feat from Xanathar's to give each of them specialties (along with different tools and languages, on top of the tools and musical instruments they got from the backgrounds). Other feats included Tavern Brawler (Mechanically not great, but I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a better rendition of aiki-jujitsu (which is only about a hundred years old, but supposedly was inspired by fighting techniques dating back to the Kamakura era) using 5E mechanics. And hey, if you wanna model Musashi dueling an opponent with an oar, well, here you go), weapon feats to customize the build, and others to round things out (the fact I had eight ABIs to play with for each character was a big help; I only needed half of those to maximize both Strength and Agility (even though samurai had armor that would amount to breastplates or even full plate mechanically, I went with light armor since I wanted all of them to be archers first and foremost; historical samurai were archers and spearmen, not swordsmen, so that ranged component was critical for me), so I had tremendous flexibility when it came to using feats to shape the characters.

You could of course do this with Battlemasters or Eldritch knights as well, but I didn't want to use those because I had enough fiddly bits to deal with as it was (I broke and made the Bayushi representative a Battlemaster, since I wanted her to have various whip tricks that aren't handled well with feats, but apart from her I stuck with Champions). I wanted the class to be a simple chassis that did what I needed it to do without dumping a bunch of baggage on me, and that was the Champion start to finish. Between the backgrounds, feats, skills, tools/instruments, and gear I had no problem making the characters as flavorful as I liked.

It'd be tougher with other classes, though. Between needing ABIs for primary abilities and a relative dearth of feats specific to spellcasters (or monks or even rogues) there's not as much slack in the system for other classes as there is for fighters. But watching all of that unfold for fighters, and for the most "boring" archetype at that, was really something.
 

Skywalker

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4E is my favourite, by a fairly large margin, but I also love 2nd edition, Basic and OD&D. Is it worth checking out, or given that 4E is my favourite, is it basically a good game, but not for me?
Check out Basic D&D, which is free. I would reserve judgement until you have actually run or played a game as well, as words on a page don't really convey how an RPG feels in play.
 
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