A message from Green Ronin re: CA Suleiman

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Jim Hague

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The latter is why the former happened. GR had such a reputation as a progressive company that the shit they pulled over the CAS thing felt like an even bigger betrayal and hurt so much. People sigh and roll their eyes when nuWW does this crap because no one is surprised at it, but when GR aggressively defends a harasser and not just throw his accusers under the bus but directly attack them, damn straight people are going to be upset and turn on them.
Sure. Problem is, people didn't stop at that. They kept (and keep on) attacking, which does nobody any good at all.
 

Sankarah

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FWIW, as they're located in the US, this week is Thanksgiving so I wouldn't necessarily expect any kind of communication coming out. Lots of people take the entire week off from work to spend time with families - generally enough that nothing important ever gets done at work in my experience. (It's mostly only retail that's going full-bore this week.)
It's always something. "Oh, but it's Nicole's birthday this weekend!" That didn't stop her from tearing into victims, but never mind.

"Oh, they're at a con this weekend!"

"Oh, it's Thanksgiving this week!"

I suppose next weekend they'll be Christmas shopping or something. It's stupid; either they give a shit about responding properly to the mess they made or they don't. If they don't, there's no sense making excuses for them; just adjust your buying decisions accordingly and move on.
 

Jim Hague

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Are any of those people here?
In my opinion? Yes. Not that where it's happening matters. It's that it's being done that does. That it's doing a megaton of collateral damage that does. It's that, as ANTPogo pointed out, people's shock turned into anger, then into harassment, compounding the existing harm and adding little but noise to the situation that matters.

People were hurt, harassed, and victimized. Real, living, breathing human beings that should never have had to experience any of the inciting incidents. The reaction was handled badly in nearly every way possible. The reaction to the reaction has made things worse.

You look at Mentzer or Webb, they have a history of this behavior, a long one. GR doesn't, Nicole doesn't; quite the opposite. Because of that, I'm willing to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ask everyone to do so as well. I can't make anyone do that, obviously, but de-escalating at times like this is usually the best possible action. That's the path toward justice rather than retribution, at least in my opinion. It gives those harassed and victimized a chance to stop being hit repeatedly with forced revisits, it gives GR time to sort their side out and present their perspective, and, most importantly, it clears the air for everyone else to look at things once they're beyond the initial shock of it all.
 

Logos Invictus

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I mean, it certainly sucks that people like Zak and Pundit are using this to their advantage - but I hardly consider that reason to not expect accountability from GR. Especially when they've literally said they've suffered more harm from this than all of CAS's victims.
Actually, I think this leads to a point I've been considering from some time - Green Ronin didn't say that, Nicole Lindroos did. And, while it can be reasonably expected that she represents Green Ronin in these matters, I think it's fairly clear at this point that statements from individuals at Green Ronin are being conflated with an official stance to a degree with which I'm not particularly comfortable. There are definitely things that Green Ronin, as a company, has done wrong in this - their initial statement was quite bad, they clearly haven't had any kind of coherent plan of action for moving forward, and they certainly haven't been taking the necessary steps a company should take to ensure that the people in their company involved in this matter have been representing them professionally to the public or not at all.

That said. The attacks on the victims and other comments made, were made by individuals who - it's very clear just from reading the things they've said that have been posted in this thread - were acting emotionally, rather than cynically. It certainly doesn't make what they did and said justifiable by any stretch of the imagination, but with a company as small as Green Ronin in an industry as small as tabletop gaming, conflating the individual, emotional responses of employees, even the co-owner, with any kind of official stance by the company or its other employees (or other owner) or cynical damage control feels disingenuous to me.

At this point all Green Ronin has done as far as I'm concerned is fire CA Suleiman, as they should have, release some public statements that were pretty poor, which they should correct, and didn't prevent certain of their employees from publically reacting to accusations against a longterm friend in a really, really shitty - but also understandable, given the attacks being made against them and the intense, emotionally charged nature of the accusations in the current climate - way. They still have some climbing to do, but I feel it's painting with rather a broad brush to attribute anything to Green Ronin other than the official statements it makes and actions that it takes, especially in an industry where - until now, at least, hopefully - lack of organization and business-like preparedness for situations like this have been the norm even for much larger companies.
 

Jim Hague

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In any case, I've said my piece on it, and I don't want to add fuel to the fire. I'll recuse myself from the thread. Those that want to discuss it further can reach me by the usual means.
 

Flawless Glory of Silence

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In my opinion? Yes. Not that where it's happening matters. It's that it's being done that does. That it's doing a megaton of collateral damage that does. It's that, as ANTPogo pointed out, people's shock turned into anger, then into harassment, compounding the existing harm and adding little but noise to the situation that matters.

People were hurt, harassed, and victimized. Real, living, breathing human beings that should never have had to experience any of the inciting incidents. The reaction was handled badly in nearly every way possible. The reaction to the reaction has made things worse.

You look at Mentzer or Webb, they have a history of this behavior, a long one. GR doesn't, Nicole doesn't; quite the opposite. Because of that, I'm willing to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ask everyone to do so as well. I can't make anyone do that, obviously, but de-escalating at times like this is usually the best possible action. That's the path toward justice rather than retribution, at least in my opinion. It gives those harassed and victimized a chance to stop being hit repeatedly with forced revisits, it gives GR time to sort their side out and present their perspective, and, most importantly, it clears the air for everyone else to look at things once they're beyond the initial shock of it all.
So call those people out, rather than trying to lump all criticism of GR in with the exploitative action - which is pretty much textbook tone policing.

And GRdoes have a history of stepping into things rather messily, and then being aggressively defensive about even mild, good faith critique. This may be the first time its happened in regards to a subject as fraught as this, but the uprising thing here is that they are reacting this way to something that is supposedly such a core value for them, not the overall reaction in general.
 

Flawless Glory of Silence

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Actually, I think this leads to a point I've been considering from some time - Green Ronin didn't say that, Nicole Lindroos did. And, while it can be reasonably expected that she represents Green Ronin in these matters, I think it's fairly clear at this point that statements from individuals at Green Ronin are being conflated with an official stance to a degree with which I'm not particularly comfortable. There are definitely things that Green Ronin, as a company, has done wrong in this - their initial statement was quite bad, they clearly haven't had any kind of coherent plan of action for moving forward, and they certainly haven't been taking the necessary steps a company should take to ensure that the people in their company involved in this matter have been representing them professionally to the public or not at all.

That said. The attacks on the victims and other comments made, were made by individuals who - it's very clear just from reading the things they've said that have been posted in this thread - were acting emotionally, rather than cynically. It certainly doesn't make what they did and said justifiable by any stretch of the imagination, but with a company as small as Green Ronin in an industry as small as tabletop gaming, conflating the individual, emotional responses of employees, even the co-owner, with any kind of official stance by the company or its other employees (or other owner) or cynical damage control feels disingenuous to me.

At this point all Green Ronin has done as far as I'm concerned is fire CA Suleiman, as they should have, release some public statements that were pretty poor, which they should correct, and didn't prevent certain of their employees from publically reacting to accusations against a longterm friend in a really, really shitty - but also understandable, given the attacks being made against them and the intense, emotionally charged nature of the accusations in the current climate - way. They still have some climbing to do, but I feel it's painting with rather a broad brush to attribute anything to Green Ronin other than the official statements it makes and actions that it takes, especially in an industry where - until now, at least, hopefully - lack of organization and business-like preparedness for situations like this have been the norm even for much larger companies.
GR and Nicole certainly have never seemed to seek to maintain that separation when it's about how awesome and progressive they are.... *shrugs*
 
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MatchstickUK

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In my opinion? Yes. Not that where it's happening matters. It's that it's being done that does. That it's doing a megaton of collateral damage that does. It's that, as ANTPogo pointed out, people's shock turned into anger, then into harassment, compounding the existing harm and adding little but noise to the situation that matters.

People were hurt, harassed, and victimized. Real, living, breathing human beings that should never have had to experience any of the inciting incidents. The reaction was handled badly in nearly every way possible. The reaction to the reaction has made things worse.

You look at Mentzer or Webb, they have a history of this behavior, a long one. GR doesn't, Nicole doesn't; quite the opposite. Because of that, I'm willing to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ask everyone to do so as well. I can't make anyone do that, obviously, but de-escalating at times like this is usually the best possible action. That's the path toward justice rather than retribution, at least in my opinion. It gives those harassed and victimized a chance to stop being hit repeatedly with forced revisits, it gives GR time to sort their side out and present their perspective, and, most importantly, it clears the air for everyone else to look at things once they're beyond the initial shock of it all.
Quite frankly IMO Nicole's previous behaviour is utterly irrelevant just in light of here appalling behaviour on this site, behaviour she has as far as I can tell made no attempt to apologise for. And that's before any consideration of her actions on wider social media.
 

Bailywolf

bwakbwak
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Everybody, find some chill. I'm locking this thread for a couple of hours. I might do more.
 
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