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[Anti-4e] 4e sucks!

hackmastergeneral

Pope of Chili Town
Validated User
Basically man, my point is "there are commonalities between video games and rpgs - always have been. The idea that WOTC made specific design choices with the intent of making the game more like a video game (your assertion) is absurd. Anyone who has played WoW and 4ed knows they are nothing alike. Is some terminology superficially similar? Sure. But the similarities are only superficial."

It's mostly a tired and worn-out argument. I get sick of seeing it. Talk about the game, not about if it is and isn't like WoW.

If it's not a big deal, why bother bringing it up?
 

Arevashti

Aspiring World-Builder
Validated User
Basically man, my point is "there are commonalities between video games and rpgs - always have been. The idea that WOTC made specific design choices with the intent of making the game more like a video game (your assertion) is absurd. Anyone who has played WoW and 4ed knows they are nothing alike. Is some terminology superficially similar? Sure. But the similarities are only superficial."
And yet, just about everyone I know who's played both would disagree with you, and call denying the similarity—and especially denying any similarity—"absurd." Sorry.

If it's not a big deal, why bother bringing it up?
Hey, I wasn't the one who initially brought it up. I was simply the one who asked why it's automatically considered such an insult.
 

zend0g

Registered User
Validated User
Same here.
That would make two of us.
As a grognard DM, the only reason you could is that we simply did not have monsters move past you to cream the squishies. A fighter was normally not enough of a risk* to a multi-HD creature (or even enough 1HD creatures) to be able to stop them. Because really what fun would have that been (and what would it have accomplished) to kill the mage and cleric every single game? Computer games like EQ and such had to give warriors abilities like taunt because there was no DM there to play nice.

*Baring things like rangers against low level giant class creatures and being able to force monsters through a choke point which brings up its own problems.
 

Arevashti

Aspiring World-Builder
Validated User
Because it's almost invariably used in an insulting manner. There, that wasn't so hard.
And I made it abundantly clear that I didn't intend it as such. "LULZWURLDUVDUNJINCRAPHT" comments, and the prevalence thereof, are entirely beside the point.

"Anecdote" is not the plural of "data".
Indeed. And if all that either of us can seem to produce here are anecdotes, I would suggest that we agree to disagree.
 
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hackmastergeneral

Pope of Chili Town
Validated User
And I made it abundantly clear that I didn't intend it as such. "LULZWURLDUVDUNJINCRAPHT" comments, and the prevalence thereof, are entirely beside the point.
But it explains why people are so defensive about it. If you are to be believed, you are just about the first person to make the comparison around here without meaning it derisively or insultingly. That's your whole point of this line of debate, so you claim - to understand why the mention of "4ed=WoW" is taken so poorly here. There's your answer: 99.999% of the time, it's been used as a line of attack on 4ed, and often on those who play it.

There, answered the question. Anything else we can help you with?
 

Kai Tave

Registered User
Validated User
And I made it abundantly clear that I didn't intend it as such. "LULZWURLDUVDUNJINCRAPHT" comments, and the prevalence thereof, are entirely beside the point.
No, they're exactly the point. You aren't, believe it or not, the first person to try and "reclaim" that particular comparison, but you're competing against three-plus years of people using "4E = WoW lol" as a shorthand form of "your game sucks." You asking why it's considered contentious and insulting is, quite frankly, disingenuous of you.
 

Arevashti

Aspiring World-Builder
Validated User
But it explains why people are so defensive about it. If you are to be believed, you are just about the first person to make the comparison around here without meaning it derisively or insultingly. That's your whole point of this line of debate, so you claim - to understand why the mention of "4ed=WoW" is taken so poorly here. There's your answer: 99.999% of the time, it's been used as a line of attack on 4ed, and often on those who play it.
It would explain it to some degree if the responses weren't invariably so extreme, regardless of circumstances.

It would be one thing if I'd been the one to actually broach the subject (which I was not), or if I had been using it as an insult. But I was neutral. And yet, not only was the response the same as if I'd been using it as an insult, my motivations have been called into question.

What if I'd told you that I've seen video-game comparisons actually brought up as a positive? Because I could just about swear that I have.

No, they're exactly the point. You aren't, believe it or not, the first person to try and "reclaim" that particular comparison, but you're competing against three-plus years of people using "4E = WoW lol" as a shorthand form of "your game sucks." You asking why it's considered contentious and insulting is, quite frankly, disingenuous of you.
So pointing out that context matters is "disingenuous" now?

Perhaps I worded things poorly: The issue is less why it's a flashpoint when it comes to discussion, and more why a similarity to electronic games—if it is there—is automatically a point in the game's disfavor.

In other words: would a hypothetical attempt to appeal to electronic gamers necessarily make the game system a "bad" one? I would argue not.
 
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