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[Anti-4e] 4e sucks!

Flawless Glory of Silence

New member
Banned
No, it wouldn't.

Listen you need some perspective. There was a fellow, I think it was WalkerERP, who had a very particular history with 4ed. WOTC was asked the "WoW" question, and their response was "of course we looked at the most successful video game rpg to see if there was any inspiration we could take from it to enhance and improve our game. We'd be stupid not to". He argued, quite vehemently, that the mere CONSIDERATION of WoW by WOTC meant 4ed was the worst most stupid game ever. Not that the game DID play like WoW, that the mere CONSIDERATION, even if they determined there was nothing they could take from it, was enough to poison the game. It was one of the most vitriolic exchanges I've seen around this forum, and it continued for some time (he was VERY anti-4ed).

And that was merely the most extreme example.
Another extreme example:

The 4E designers said they briefly looked at MMO-style aggro mechanics, before rejecting them as unsuitable and unworkable for a tabletop game, but they did take an idea away from them (presumably marking or something about how it works). Another user here, RSC, immediately denounced 4E as a game he'd never even consider looking at, merely because, again, the mere fact that an MMO was looked at all somehow tainted it, making not a "real" roleplaying game.

And that's the central point here: for every time there has been a reasonable, good faith "How has WoW/video games affected 4E?", there's been about eleventy billion oneses "4E is just a morepig on the table top not REALZ roleplaying game where lame gnomes weaves baskets like proper D&D!!!!"
 

Arevashti

Aspiring World-Builder
Validated User
No, as was mentioned earlier it's more likely that the poster who completely flipped his shit was walkererp (who has since been banned from posting in D&D Open), not John Wick.
As of when I started typing that, it looked like there was still some debate as to who, exactly, it had been.

And that's the central point here: for every time there has been a reasonable, good faith "How has WoW/video games affected 4E?", there's been about eleventy billion oneses "4E is just a morepig on the table top not REALZ roleplaying game where lame gnomes weaves baskets like proper D&D!!!!"
My argument was intended in good faith. Let's just have that out in the open, shall we?

And while my experience is admittedly limited, I really haven't seen that many of the latter (even calculating for comedic exaggeration) that weren't overt troll posts. Hell, I haven't even seen that many overt troll posts along those lines.
 
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Peregrin

Bwahaha!
I think it's funny that some people can't understand that some game mechanics can be separated from their medium, and then tweaked to be used in another, and that doesn't mean the experience you're going to get is any more related to the medium the mechanics were stolen from.

I don't hear people lamenting the fact that Civ V is "like a tabletop game" because it uses hexes and a turn-based structure. There are a lot of things it does that would not work well at all in a tabletop game, and the similarities are purely superficial. It'd be like saying that because you looked at aerospace designs for inspiration when engineering a ground vehicle, it somehow makes that ground vehicle more like an airplane or something. It's ridiculous.

Speaking as someone who is a much bigger PC/video-gamer than tabletopper, there is nothing you can add to a tabletop game to make it more like a video-game, or to attract video-gamers specifically, since we play video-games because we like the medium, not because we have more or less certain types of mechanics in our games. Even if you try to implement something that is similar conceptually, it is going to feel entirely different.

4e cannot feel like WoW, and it cannot be like WoW, because tabletop and video, as mediums, create entirely different experiences.
 
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hackmastergeneral

Pope of Chili Town
Validated User
Another extreme example:

The 4E designers said they briefly looked at MMO-style aggro mechanics, before rejecting them as unsuitable and unworkable for a tabletop game, but they did take an idea away from them (presumably marking or something about how it works). Another user here, RSC, immediately denounced 4E as a game he'd never even consider looking at, merely because, again, the mere fact that an MMO was looked at all somehow tainted it, making not a "real" roleplaying game.

And that's the central point here: for every time there has been a reasonable, good faith "How has WoW/video games affected 4E?", there's been about eleventy billion oneses "4E is just a morepig on the table top not REALZ roleplaying game where lame gnomes weaves baskets like proper D&D!!!!"
RSC! That's the guy I was talking about!
 

Arevashti

Aspiring World-Builder
Validated User
I think it's funny that some people can't understand that some game mechanics can be separated from their medium, and then tweaked to be used in another, and that doesn't mean the experience you're going to get is any more related to the medium the mechanics were stolen from.

I don't hear people lamenting the fact that Civ V is "like a tabletop game" because it uses hexes and a turn-based structure. There are a lot of things it does that would not work well at all in a tabletop game, and the similarities are purely superficial. It'd be like saying that because you looked at aerospace designs for inspiration when engineering a ground vehicle, it somehow makes that ground vehicle more like an airplane or something. It's ridiculous.

Speaking as someone who is a much bigger PC/video-gamer than tabletopper, there is nothing you can add to a tabletop game to make it more like a video-game, or to attract video-gamers specifically, since we play video-games because we like the medium, not because we have more or less certain types of mechanics in our games. Even if you try to implement something that is similar conceptually, it is going to feel entirely different.

4e cannot feel like WoW, and it cannot be like WoW, because the mediums create entirely different experiences.
Aside from the fact that that's all subjective (or at least highly debatable)? Starting a post off with the presumption that the opposition doesn't "understand" never sets a good precedent. Disagreement does not equal incomprehension.
 

Peregrin

Bwahaha!
Aside from the fact that that's all subjective (or at least highly debatable)? Starting a post off with the presumption that the opposition doesn't "understand" never sets a good precedent. Disagreement does not equal incomprehension.
I'd like to think otherwise. I don't think they're stupid or anything. I just don't think they've really grappled with game-design.

Thought experiment.

Turn-based computer games exist.

Turn-based tabletop games exist.

Therefore, turn-based cannot be an identifying factor when looking for differences between video-games and tabletop as mediums.

Therefore, something being turn-based cannot make something more or less like a video-game or tabletop game -- that particular game structure exists as something independent.

If you can separate the "feature" from the medium and apply it elsewhere effectively, it's not an identifying feature of the medium. This is why a lot of game-design at the academic level -- at least in the foundational classes -- is platform agnostic. The concepts can be applied across a variety of mediums and types of games because they're not tied to any one medium.
 

Has Terrible Opinions

Eekom Bokam
Validated User
Personally, I'm still kind of confused as to why people view MMOs as the enemy rather than a resource to be mined in pursuit of more engaging gameplay.
 

Flawless Glory of Silence

New member
Banned
I'm really not sure why that specific comparison seems to be such a flashpoint. If you can still get people together to play it, does it really matter from where it took its cues?
This is what is being explained. And we get, once again, the same cries of "But it shouldn't be!" even after explaining why.

And this is exactly what I mean by it being a flashpoint: Point it out in a completely neutral manner, and someone will feel the need to hotly contest it.
And here is you following the same tired paths we've seen trolls walk down before: "You're just knee-jerk reacting to my completely neutral (and thus A-OK) statements by hotly (double plus ungood) contesting them." Even if that's not you're intent, it's a form that's all too common. And you admitted that your characterization of hackmastergeneral's response as "hotly contesting" was over much, which is cool, but hopefully that also means you can see how that can (and has) tainted the conversation.

My argument was intended in good faith. Let's just have that out in the open, shall we?

And while my experience is admittedly limited, I really haven't seen that many of the latter (even calculating for comedic exaggeration) that weren't overt troll posts. Hell, I haven't even seen that many overt troll posts along those lines.
I will concede that it well may have been, and offered in ignorance of prior history of this topic here. However, how you've comported yourself has been less than...reassuring of such concession, shall we say? And if your experience is so limited, then it may behoove you to observe the tenor of things and listen when people tell you what the zeitgeist here is like, and how you are stumbling over it. I see you have a May 2010 join date. If you weren't lurking here or operating under a different account previous to that, you'd have missed a lot of this. This particular front was very hot in 2008 and 2009, with many offenders topic or forum banned from D20 Open, and the "4E == WoW == SUXX0RZ" horse corpse has long had any flesh flogged from its tired bones, and so doesn't get much play nowadays.

Personally, I'm still kind of confused as to why people view MMOs as the enemy rather than a resource to be mined in pursuit of more engaging gameplay.
Geek tribalism.
 

ExoKnight

Registered User
Validated User
Personally, I'm still kind of confused as to why people view MMOs as the enemy rather than a resource to be mined in pursuit of more engaging gameplay.
Because how else are we suppose to kill dead time? Need something to argue about.
 
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