C&C: Saves. What do you do?

[smug]

Saves versus monster or caster, in particular. As discussed from time to time, the save against a same-level caster doesn't change even if that level is 12 and the spell is first level, because the CL is caster level and the character gets their level as bonus to their save, making levels a wash the same-level matchup; in cases of the save being tied to a secondary attribute the success chance is fairly low (with no stat or other bonus other than level, it's 15%). This isn't the case in AD&D, where saves get easier and caster level or spell level don't matter (in 3.x, of course, casting stat, spell level and special abilities all count).

So, how do you do saves? As written, or with spell level added to CL instead, nothing added to CL, some combination of stuff, what? I guess I've mostly added spell level instead of caster level, although I haven't really settled on anything. I haven't read much Crusader, but hacking this specifically isn't mentioned, as I recall, in the PhB or CKG (although probabilities would be affected by a chance to the target numbers for primary/secondary stats).

 

[Skywalker]

I use 10 and 15 rather than 12 and 18 as the base DCs so that somewhat ameliorates the issue.

 

[Lars Dangly]

I play it straight and don't think it is a problem.

 

[Lars Dangly]

Note that any tweeking of the rules governing saves work against player characters just as much as it works for them. Consider the case when your player character is the caster and the hapless monster is the one making the saves. If you fiddle too much, you will end up with a game in which any monster having HD close to your level has a ~50 % chance of shrugging off your spells. Kind of a drag.

 

[smug]

Note that any tweeking of the rules governing saves work against player characters just as much as it works for them. Consider the case when your player character is the caster and the hapless monster is the one making the saves. If you fiddle too much, you will end up with a game in which any monster having HD close to your level has a ~50 % chance of shrugging off your spells. Kind of a drag.

It was more or less a feature of how 1e worked, though; I think that it was OK back then, myself.

 

[Springaldjack]

It was more or less a feature of how 1e worked, though; I think that it was OK back then, myself.

Or rather in OD&D/BD&D/1e/2e higher level/HD targets make saves more often than lower ones almost regardless of the source of threat. Most spells/monster abilities (except poison) didn't modify the save, and it was an increasing base chance.

 

[simontmn]

The C&C caster gets to triple-dip as he levels up: more spells, more powerful spells, and harder save DC. It's really egregious compared to 1e AD&D where the saves were static, yet high level 1e M-Us were still considered the most powerful class. The poor high level Fighter has no chance vs the high level Wizard; at least in 1e he could usually save.

As a compromise I'd suggest adding 1/2 caster level to save TN, rather than full caster level. That needs much less book keeping than adding spell level, and has a similar effect but slightly stronger.

 

[Springaldjack]

The poor high level Fighter has no chance vs the high level Wizard; at least in 1e he could usually save.

Since there aren't things like caps on fireball damage etc, I'd say whoever casts first wins, because its not like a Wizard can survive another Wizards spell.

 

[smug]

As I said, I'm generally inclined to just add spell level, although I can see the arguments for whole or fraction of caster level, or some combination of spell level and caster level. It's not so much of an issue at the low levels we've been at (1st-4th) but I think it's going to be an issue at higher levels, particularly if it turns into "win the initiative rocket tag" as Springaldjack mentions..

 

[csperkins1970]

As I wrote in another thread, I just use a base of 13 and ditch primes altogether.

To make up for the loss of an extra prime, humans get a +1 bonus to all ability checks (including saving throws). It's a no muss, no fuss solution that works well.