Civilization VI - Second Expansion Announced

Rabbit Éclair

high in vital bunnytonium
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#12
It sounds like an interesting set of changes. I like the direction they've been taking Civ VI, even if it hasn't quite surpassed V as my favorite in the series yet. But it really feels like they've been focusing in on toning down the 'I'm ahead now so I'll always be ahead' factor by adding unpredictability with the expansions, which is something the series could really use.
 

Esckey

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#13
I don't know where the info is coming from. Canada Civ! With Laurier as leader. Is this the first time Canada has made the cut in a Civ game? I don't remember it happening before but I wouldn't.

As a Canadian, I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand its about damn time. On the other hand, just off he top of my head I can name a few Civs more deserving then Canada(Portugal, Byzantine, etc, not to mention a ton of new leaders for the current list of Civs)

Only thing I can think of as to why Canada is if they are a part of a new Scenario, or to have some thing to do with the new mechanics like diplomatic favour or the new power system.
 

Killer300

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#14
It sounds like an interesting set of changes. I like the direction they've been taking Civ VI, even if it hasn't quite surpassed V as my favorite in the series yet. But it really feels like they've been focusing in on toning down the 'I'm ahead now so I'll always be ahead' factor by adding unpredictability with the expansions, which is something the series could really use.
How is Civ 6 at this point?

I probably won't get it until the Winter Sale, but, I hear such conflicting things about it, and I don't know if its say, been patched more since then.
 

Rabbit Éclair

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#16
How is Civ 6 at this point?

I probably won't get it until the Winter Sale, but, I hear such conflicting things about it, and I don't know if its say, been patched more since then.
It's a pretty good game. Rise and Fall gave it some much-needed extra complexity, and perhaps more importantly, gave it some new systems to differentiate it more from just being Vanilla Civ V Except Now You Build Stuff In Tiles. It's been heavily patched and rebalanced, to the point that it's barely even the same game that it was at launch. Unfortunately, as of the last time I really played it (about four months ago?) the AI still felt kinda dumb compared to Civ V, and the different leaders felt kinda same-y and prone to making arbitrary-feeling decisions. I'm not going to dock a lot of points for that, though, since 'the AI is kinda dumb and makes some weird choices' is practically a hallmark of the Civ series at this point.

If you like Civ V, I'd say it's definitely worth checking out. I don't like VI as much yet, but I've gotta give it props for trying new stuff. The patches have been huge improvements, so here's hoping the new expansion is another leap forward.

In my opinion...
Pros:
  • Religion is more interesting than it is in V--there's just more to do with it altogether, and more circumstances where it can be worthwhile to found one.
  • The whole district system really does force you to specialize early on, and the variation between a city built with a good eye for the surroundings and correct district choices vs. one that was just plopped down can be huge.
  • The inspiration/eureka system does actually do its job, too. I've totally had games where I had to change what approach I had planned because the inspirations I got led things to develop in a different direction than I'd anticipated.
  • The tiers of military units have been pruned down and folded together. It can feel a little unrealistic in places, but compared to having to upgrade your infantry like three times in quick succession once you hit the Industrial age, I think I'm okay with it.
  • I feel like more of the civilizations urge you toward a distinct playstyle than in previous iterations. Zulu is wasted if you aren't gonna warmonger with your early corps. The Cree let you lock down your borders super-early and block off huge chunks of continents. Kongo's unique civilization ability is Being The Best At Everything.
  • The fresh water dependency adds a big factor to city placement that I feel like was missing from previous iterations? No longer can you just casually drop a city wherever there's a single thing you want. Between this and the districts, you're kinda forced to think about cities more as a whole.
Cons:
  • On the religion thing? The AI still likes spamming missionaries as much as ever. If you have the wrong neighbor, just keeping your religion intact is practically a full-time job, and it's one that takes more attention than it does in V. I think this may have been toned down in a fairly recent patch. There was a whole controversy a while back where it looked like one of the game's files had an embarrassing typo that was heavily influencing this.
  • The district thing? A lot of that goes away toward the late game, and half your cities will be rocking most of the districts. Also, the importance of choice really dwindles. Placing your first Industrial Zone is a pretty big decision that heavily influences the next hundred turns. Putting down your tenth industrial zone? Basically does not matter, but you will still have to choose what tile is best for it. The increased decision-making that gives you options early on just becomes a chore later, and it exacerbates the usual Civ endgame issues.
  • Ironically enough, in their attempts to make the AI feel more different from each other, they came out feeling more same-y to me. A lot of agendas, both the permanent ones and the hidden ones that get randomly assigned, are... things you can't really control. Meet an AI whose agenda is all about not building tons of improvements, in the 1700s after you've... already built tons of improvements? Congratulations, they're gonna call you up every forty turns to complain from now on. It kinda makes every leader end up feeling arbitrary and annoying. And really petty sometimes, too. Yeah, bro, I know you've been calling me up for the past 1500 years to complain that I have no navy, and it is going to stay like that because I'm a landlocked empire.
  • Inspirations and Eurekas, in a lot of ways, reward you for being ahead. A lot of them are stuff like 'build three of Unit X,' which is gonna be harder to pull off if you've fallen behind on tech. Having the exact wrong set of circumstances can also lead you to get very few of them during a certain age, and 'you are just kinda slower and worse at everything' doesn't make a very interesting punishment for not being able to get ahold of some niter or whatever.
There's probably some significant stuff I'm missing, but it's been about half a year since I heavily played either game, so my memory's a bit rusty.
 
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Killer300

Registered User
Validated User
#17
It's a pretty good game. Rise and Fall gave it some much-needed extra complexity, and perhaps more importantly, gave it some new systems to differentiate it more from just being Vanilla Civ V Except Now You Build Stuff In Tiles. It's been heavily patched and rebalanced, to the point that it's barely even the same game that it was at launch. Unfortunately, as of the last time I really played it (about four months ago?) the AI still felt kinda dumb compared to Civ V, and the different leaders felt kinda same-y and prone to making arbitrary-feeling decisions. I'm not going to dock a lot of points for that, though, since 'the AI is kinda dumb and makes some weird choices' is practically a hallmark of the Civ series at this point.

If you like Civ V, I'd say it's definitely worth checking out. I don't like VI as much yet, but I've gotta give it props for trying new stuff. The patches have been huge improvements, so here's hoping the new expansion is another leap forward.
Never actually played Civ 5. Heck, the last Civ(not counting Alpha Centauri), I played was Civilization 3 which... I really didn't care for.

But yeah, does sound like by the winter sale I should consider it.

In my opinion...
Pros:
  • Religion is more interesting than it is in V--there's just more to do with it altogether, and more circumstances where it can be worthwhile to found one.
  • The whole district system really does force you to specialize early on, and the variation between a city built with a good eye for the surroundings and correct district choices vs. one that was just plopped down can be huge.
  • The inspiration/eureka system does actually do its job, too. I've totally had games where I had to change what approach I had planned because the inspirations I got led things to develop in a different direction than I'd anticipated.
  • The tiers of military units have been pruned down and folded together. It can feel a little unrealistic in places, but compared to having to upgrade your infantry like three times in quick succession once you hit the Industrial age, I think I'm okay with it.
  • I feel like more of the civilizations urge you toward a distinct playstyle than in previous iterations. Zulu is wasted if you aren't gonna warmonger with your early corps. The Cree let you lock down your borders super-early and block off huge chunks of continents. Kongo's unique civilization ability is Being The Best At Everything.
  • The fresh water dependency adds a big factor to city placement that I feel like was missing from previous iterations? No longer can you just casually drop a city wherever there's a single thing you want. Between this and the districts, you're kinda forced to think about cities more as a whole.
Cons:
  • On the religion thing? The AI still likes spamming missionaries as much as ever. If you have the wrong neighbor, just keeping your religion intact is practically a full-time job, and it's one that takes more attention than it does in V. I think this may have been toned down in a fairly recent patch. There was a whole controversy a while back where it looked like one of the game's files had an embarrassing typo that was heavily influencing this.
  • The district thing? A lot of that goes away toward the late game, and half your cities will be rocking most of the districts. Also, the importance of choice really dwindles. Placing your first Industrial Zone is a pretty big decision that heavily influences the next hundred turns. Putting down your tenth industrial zone? Basically does not matter, but you will still have to choose what tile is best for it. The increased decision-making that gives you options early on just becomes a chore later, and it exacerbates the usual Civ endgame issues.
  • Ironically enough, in their attempts to make the AI feel more different from each other, they came out feeling more same-y to me. A lot of agendas, both the permanent ones and the hidden ones that get randomly assigned, are... things you can't really control. Meet an AI whose agenda is all about not building tons of improvements, in the 1700s after you've... already built tons of improvements? Congratulations, they're gonna call you up every forty turns to complain from now on. It kinda makes every leader end up feeling arbitrary and annoying. And really petty sometimes, too. Yeah, bro, I know you've been calling me up for the past 1500 years to complain that I have no navy, and it is going to stay like that because I'm a landlocked empire.
  • Inspirations and Eurekas, in a lot of ways, reward you for being ahead. A lot of them are stuff like 'build three of Unit X,' which is gonna be harder to pull off if you've fallen behind on tech. Having the exact wrong set of circumstances can also lead you to get very few of them during a certain age, and 'you are just kinda slower and worse at everything' doesn't make a very interesting punishment for not being able to get ahold of some niter or whatever.
There's probably some significant stuff I'm missing, but it's been about half a year since I heavily played either game, so my memory's a bit rusty.
Shame on the late game stuff, but, that seems to be one of those intractable problems in 4X games in general, not just Civilization(although Paradox can be an interesting exception to this). This does make me hope the latest expansion could do some to help the late game, as at least some of the stuff would presumably happen late game, and could hopefully alter some of how it works.
 

Stork!

Wish I was a hippo.
RPGnet Member
Validated User
#18
As with all edition changes it can be hard to find useful feedback because you have to avoid the edition warriors who are basically prettying up "It's different so now it sucks." There's also the problem that a new edition of a thing has to compete with the mature version of the old thing. Vanilla Civ 6 lacks a lot compared to Civ 5 with it's multiple expansions. Rabbit Eclair's summary is really good but overall Steam scores (or wherever) are skewed by the people who are ideologically committed to hating the new edition. Not to say there aren't legitimate complaints. There certainly are. I don't really notice the AI problems because I'm a poor enough player that it's basically a feature. I'm not sure I could go back to not having districts and wonders being real things on the map. I would also miss the fully fleshed out Culture tree. You're best bet (IMO) is to read actual reviews and see what they say about features, aggregate scores are likely to be weird.



I ran into a bit of weirdness playing as the Kongo earlier. Wanted to share it with someone and this thread seems like an okay place.

I was going all in on statuary with my Great Artists (as one does with the Kongolese). I wasn't building art museums but I was happy to get sculptors and put the stuff in the giant capital gallery. First one I got was Michelangelo, not bad I took it and traded away the Sistine Chapel art. Next up was a painter so I passed and this is where the trouble started. No one else was generating Great Artist points (basically) and your pass points don't roll over into a new Great Person until the current one up for grabs gets grabbed. This is a pretty obvious outcome of the system but I'd never run into it before. I'd have gotten more sculptures if I just took everyone. I had three musicians and never saw a second artist.
 

Jhiday

Unrepentant Froggie
RPGnet Member
Validated User
#19
As a recent Switch convert (although I played most earlier versions on PC), I'm playing vanilla-with-some-patches, and I'm liking it a lot. Certainly more than Vanilla-V, which just felt empty until they added subsystems back with the extensions.

There's something that puzzles me on my first playthrough, though. One of my opponents is making fast progress on the Cultural/Tourism front. Fair enough : I didn't pay much attention to Tourism until at least the Industrial Era, and Greece has cultural bonuses that give them a definite advantage. What nonplusses me is that their Tourism requirement is somehow half of everyone else. How did they manage that ? Is is a Wonder, a policy, som innate civ/leader bonus I've somehow missed ?

Anyway, too bad for them, because this feels enough like a threat that I've started to re-engineer my logistics so that a massive army can sweep in and steal all of their landmark cities before it's too late. (It helps that they've got the worst military I've ever seen. They've just started attacking one of my vassal city-states... with a lone catapult. WTF ?) It's a shame, I would otherwise have left them alone... (as a source of Great Works for my spies to steal :sneaky:).


The diplomacy AI definitely feels a bit wonky, but then that's always been the case with Civ. The Greeks have been angry at me for centuries because I didn't pursue Barbarians as much as they wanted. Well, there's no way that's going to change now, since I've long been at the point where Barbarians have all been wiped out. (They're also mad that I've never been at war so far... Well, be careful what you wish for.)
 

Stork!

Wish I was a hippo.
RPGnet Member
Validated User
#20
As a recent Switch convert (although I played most earlier versions on PC), I'm playing vanilla-with-some-patches, and I'm liking it a lot. Certainly more than Vanilla-V, which just felt empty until they added subsystems back with the extensions.

There's something that puzzles me on my first playthrough, though. One of my opponents is making fast progress on the Cultural/Tourism front. Fair enough : I didn't pay much attention to Tourism until at least the Industrial Era, and Greece has cultural bonuses that give them a definite advantage. What nonplusses me is that their Tourism requirement is somehow half of everyone else. How did they manage that ? Is is a Wonder, a policy, som innate civ/leader bonus I've somehow missed ?

*SNIP*
The Tourism requirement is based on the cultural output of the other Civs. Everyone else has to have a Tourism output that beats the Greek Cultural output, Greeks only have to beat everyone else's culture. That's the meat of it, the details are available online in places.
 
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