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Disney all-in on Star Wars a mistake?

Daz Florp Lebam

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So, maybe the lesson Disney needs to learn is to look to the OT for a sense of how much info the audience needs. TFA: too little. PT: too much. ?
 

Qwa'ha Xahn

High King of the Known Worlds
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Yeah, it's possible J. J. Abrams over-corrected on the amount of political exposition there was in the prequels.
At least some exists on the cutting room floor, IIRC. When the Hosnian system goes up, we get a shot of people seeing the beam coming- The grey haired alien is the Supreme Chancellor and the black woman is Leia’s representative. Again, IIRC- there was at least one scene of her trying to convince the Chancellor of the First Order threat.
 

Daz Florp Lebam

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At least some exists on the cutting room floor, IIRC. When the Hosnian system goes up, we get a shot of people seeing the beam coming- The grey haired alien is the Supreme Chancellor and the black woman is Leia’s representative. Again, IIRC- there was at least one scene of her trying to convince the Chancellor of the First Order threat.
That's fascinating, especially considering we might see some of that footage in ROS.
 

Qwa'ha Xahn

High King of the Known Worlds
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That's fascinating, especially considering we might see some of that footage in ROS.
Sorry- “her” as in Leia’s representative, not Carrie Fisher herself. Since the rep. briefly appears onscreen in The Force Awakens, I doubt they’d be able to repurpose the scene.
 

Endless Rain

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Star Wars has always suffered from an excess of Tell instead of Show and relied on the EU to fill in gaps that really should have been included in the films.
Under Disney, they've stopped using the EU to fill in gaps at all. We still don't have a territory map of the First Order beyond "they're in the Unknown Regions and probably the New Territories and Western Reaches."
 

Fabius Maximus

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One problem, and it's quite seperate from whether or not the films were good or bad is that they can't win compared to the OT-- because the OT was a seminal moment in both popular and filmmaking culture. It knocked the doors off of hte "sci-fi" ghetto, and by extension every other fantastic genre. They were the first movies that were for general audiences where the SFX actually allowed you to forget that you were watching a movie--hell, even today the original Trench Run sequences compare favorably withy things made in 2019.

For most of the older generation in fandom, those movies defined how we viewed science fiction and fantasy, and they played a huge role in why today you have people running around an wearing sci-fi style shirts--and not being embarrassed. It wasn't revenge of the nerds, it was "the nerds have now become mainstream and the dividing lines have been weakened."

Put those two things together and you can see why you'll never override the OT, because it defined the Genre you're playing in.

Why? Do we need to know how the Emperor took over the galaxy in the original trilogy? It was supposedly an ancient republic that ran things for thousands of years. We’re supposed to just accept that one guy took over? Or do we just accept it, because that’s what the story says, and it’s not like we don’t have historical examples where similar things happened (Rome, etc.). We have historical examples for the New Republic (a central government too weak to really do the job born of a fear of tyranny) in the Articles of Confederation.
Yes, but here's the thing--in the OT? We opened up with her'es the empire. In Media res. The rest of the trilogy is taken up fighting that empire.
Then, the prequels, you have the entire three movies being dedicated to showing how that empire came to be.

Here, we've mashed them into two. The Empire wasn't--but in the first two movies, it came to be. So you're trying to do in three movies, what arguably took six movies to do in the original series.

I can accept that Palpentine took over in the OT, because it was left up to us to imagine how he did it. The current movies try to show us how Snoke took over, spell it out, but it doesn't really work that well, especially since it makes the new republic look, well, incredibly bad compared to old republic, which again, took three movies, and a plot that had been worked out over decades, even at the end of it's existence to bring it down.
 

Qwa'ha Xahn

High King of the Known Worlds
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... it makes the new republic look, well, incredibly bad compared to old republic, which again, took three movies, and a plot that had been worked out over decades, even at the end of it's existence to bring it down.
It is incredibly bad compared to the Old Republic, but it’s incredibly bad in a believable way, because of six movies worth of story that came before. Half the galaxy was convinced the Old Republic was an unbearable authority and went to war to break free. Then, after that half was blasted into compliance, the other half realized the Empire was an unbearable authority and joined the war to be be free. Of course the result is going to be a galaxy paranoid of central authority. It’s not a new plot- it’s the same plot still going on.

Possibly literally the same plot, judging by the Episode 9 trailer.
 

Rachel Cartacos

Social Justice Dragon
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The issue seems to be that there seem to be two major camps when it comes to enjoying movies, these camps exist universally but for whatever reason, the Star Wars sequels and particularly The Last Jedi really really seem to bring them to the forefront. I don't know what the official names are, so I'll call them the Doyalist-A-like camp and the Watsonian-A-like camp.

The split between the camps is like the Narrative vs Stimulationist split over in Tabletop Open, and communication between the two sides without realising this split inevitably leads to raised voices and no understanding from either side. To the Doyalist-a-like camp, Snoke's lack of backstory isn't important, he served his role in Kylo Ren's narrative and that's all he needs to do, but too the Watsonian-a-like camp this just leaving major parts of the worldbuilding out. Same thing with the rise of the first order. They're the antagonist the narrative needs so the Doyalist-a-likes don't mind the lack of details of their rise, while the Watsonian-a-likes need to know exactly how this, to us, unlikely situation came about because the worldbuilding being coherent is important to our enjoyment of the story.

I have seen discussion after discussion on this movie, largely consist of both camps just shouting their preferences at each other with no progress or understanding been made. (RPG.net is vastly better on the discussion front than other places I read, but it's still here too, even in this thread)
 

s/LaSH

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Personally, I can accept that the First Order could decapitate the Republic. If we look at actual numbers from the prequels, the Civil War involved only a few million troops - that's World War size. They straight up tell us how many clones they're producing, and it's not a lot. You can park that many people in a single spaceport. You probably won't, because some will be out on maneuvers or operations, but the Republic doesn't like fighting and could happily have the whole fleet docked as a successful example of policy. The Empire was the opposite, which is why you had... well.

Part of the Grand Army went on, first under the Empire, then as the First Order. Again, no problems with that. We know they're a militaristic society because Finn was raised from infancy as a serial numbered trooper. I kinda guessed that they went around kidnapping babies to supplement their forces, because they don't seem to have much beyond weapons and people to shoot the weapons. I think we've seen all the territory they have: big ships. A starfaring culture, of the most parasitic sort.

And again, I have no problem with the member systems of the Republic not immediately fighting back against the First Order. Again, the prequels give a better foundation for what's going on (they're surprisingly important for films so loyal to OT stylings). It's a mistake to think of the Republic as a nation with its own citizens. Farfaraway was always a series of self-contained planets with their own power structures and objectives. The Republic is more a kind of United Nations, right up until Palpatine, and that turned out to be a bad idea. It's a forum for political discourse. General Leia wanted it to be more proactive, and sought confrontation with the Order, but was shut down on account of that sounding like exactly what Darth Vader's daughter would say.

So now there's this relatively large military - bigger than any individual planet's fleet. It's just blown up the meeting-house where everybody coordinates. And nobody can coordinate resistance to it in the couple of days that follow. Makes sense enough to me.

We have one more movie to go, so who knows. They might explain more about the First Order, making it more exposition-heavy than the entire OT ("evil galactic empire, dissolved the Senate, military governors now rule"; Palpatine doesn't show up til the sequel).
 
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