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[Epic Game Store]Why prototype00 is going to be a bit more shy with his Kickstarter £.

Victim

Registered User
Validated User
I get that. But I think the only way to get them to solve it is to show them not solving it means less profit than solving it. Which means doing the only thing big online corporations actually listen to - take your money elsewhere until they do solve the problem, and make sure they know why you’re doing it.

The hard part is that they probably won’t actually listen until the lost sales are significant and from what I’ve seen on Steam there are millions and millions of customers content to just keep on throwing money at Valve for trading cards and digital hats no matter how little interest Valve have in providing a good service. And since I can’t convince them to stop, I just try not to give Valve money. It helps that my bank has just written Steam off as an untrustworthy site so every time I did buy from them my credit card got frozen until I could reassure the bank there was no fraud. That got to be so much hassle doing it every time, so I just stopped buying stuff from them.
What is the definition of a good service then? For a launcher to be useful, it needs to have a lot of your games and friends.
 

Bremen

Member
RPGnet Member
Validated User
I get that. But I think the only way to get them to solve it is to show them not solving it means less profit than solving it. Which means doing the only thing big online corporations actually listen to - take your money elsewhere until they do solve the problem, and make sure they know why you’re doing it.

The hard part is that they probably won’t actually listen until the lost sales are significant and from what I’ve seen on Steam there are millions and millions of customers content to just keep on throwing money at Valve for trading cards and digital hats no matter how little interest Valve have in providing a good service. And since I can’t convince them to stop, I just try not to give Valve money. It helps that my bank has just written Steam off as an untrustworthy site so every time I did buy from them my credit card got frozen until I could reassure the bank there was no fraud. That got to be so much hassle doing it every time, so I just stopped buying stuff from them.
I'd say if you want to financially pressure Steam into providing a better service, what would have to happen is for people to leave steam for a competing store that provides that better service. Which is tricky because, at least IMHO, Steam is by far the best and most convenient video game store out there. I'm not saying there isn't tons of room for improvement, because there is, just that no one else out there is doing it better.

If large numbers of Steam users started moving to a different store because prices were lower, Steam would probably drop prices. If they start leaving for EGS because of exclusive content, Steam would likely respond by paying for their own exclusives. And so on, including things like a highly curated storefront or a refusal to carry games with certain content.
 

Tambourine

Spirit Princess
Validated User
My argument is that event hat easy, obvious solution you put there is not that easy. Given the example of LGBT. there are subgroups that don't accept the T and subgroups that don't accept the B. And those subgroups feature gender studies experts too. Valve replacing their american male white bias with the wrong expert (which they might not be able to identify, as they need such an expert) could as well. lead to less LGBT friendliness for the BT part.
And that's just an example.

Any curation or censorship as desired has the high risk of introducing additional biases and might be not even result in removing the existing ones.
Right now Valve has adopted a policy of "If it's not illegal, we shouldn't keep it out". This has resulted in some offensive games getting on Steam, and Valve has acted on them.
Now could there be a better system? Probably. But I for one can#t see a way that doesn't also come with significant downsides.
And to be so frank, I don't think you can either.

Right now if you are an indie dev, you either get a big publisher/epic money infusion, get on steam or your game wont sell.
That's the three options, with the first not being an option for most. Any curation gatekeeping would hurt some indie devs and has a high probability to hurt the ones producicing important games even more.

Now I'm not saying it's an unsolvable problem, but I don't think it's a problem that can be solves with just money/people.
[...]
I don't buy this argument because it relies on the assumption that there is some kind of natural market state where bias does not exist and there are no gatekeeping mechanisms in place, which as several people have already alluded to, is a state that Steam has never been in throughout its entire existence.

Censorship and gatekeeping are always de facto occuring through the simple fact of Valve being a corporaton in control of the content it allows on its platform. And we already know for a fact that Valve's staff is absolutely not free from bias, and arguably already exhibits a bias against LGBTQ-friendly content if past experiences are anything to go by.


I'd say if you want to financially pressure Steam into providing a better service, what would have to happen is for people to leave steam for a competing store that provides that better service. Which is tricky because, at least IMHO, Steam is by far the best and most convenient video game store out there. I'm not saying there isn't tons of room for improvement, because there is, just that no one else out there is doing it better. [...]
Also, Steam effectively holds my gaming library hostage. Unless I make the deliberate choice to abandon a good 50-70% of the games I've been playing for the past decade or so, I am part of a captive market.
 

Bremen

Member
RPGnet Member
Validated User
Also, Steam effectively holds my gaming library hostage. Unless I make the deliberate choice to abandon a good 50-70% of the games I've been playing for the past decade or so, I am part of a captive market.
Well, you can continue to use Steam without buying things on Steam, so that isn't really true. They don't profit by users continuing to play games they own if they buy new titles on a different store.
 

Strange Visitor

Grumpy Grognard
Validated User
Also, Steam effectively holds my gaming library hostage. Unless I make the deliberate choice to abandon a good 50-70% of the games I've been playing for the past decade or so, I am part of a captive market.
This is the issue I had with launcher-based platforms from day one.
 

The Unshaven

Registered User
Validated User
I get that. But I think the only way to get them to solve it is to show them not solving it means less profit than solving it. Which means doing the only thing big online corporations actually listen to - take your money elsewhere until they do solve the problem, and make sure they know why you’re doing it.
Good plan. I haven't purchased anything from Steam or GoG for many years now and have contacted various avenues to explain why.
 

macd21

Registered User
Validated User
The problem is when they're inconsistent in consistent ways, so to speak. It's easier to get people to believe a groundless claim that a piece of media is sexualizing minors when it's about LGBT people, because we're already stereotyped as dangerous perverts.
I suspect it’s less that Valve believe it, and more that they know it’s bullshit, but have to check anyway. It’s just that bigoted asshats don’t make groundless complaints about the latest Total War game.
 

Rikimaru

Ninja Comedian
Validated User
What is the definition of a good service then? For a launcher to be useful, it needs to have a lot of your games and friends.
I was responding specifically to the discussion about Steam’s lack of testing and the amount of broken or misleading games on the store. So in the context of my post, a good service is one that prevents that.

Personally, the only important things are lots of good games and easy to buy from. I don’t care about my friends being on there since I don’t do multiplayer except rare occasions. Steam has lots of good games but since a lot of credit card fraud goes through Steam, several Irish banks flag every transaction on their store as potential fraud requiring me to clear the transaction as genuine with my bank every time. So they fail the easy to buy from check for me. Though that isn’t particularly Steam’s fault, it could be improved by Steam signing up to some of the credit card two factor authentication schemes that are in place so stolen cards would be no good on Steam unless you’d also got the victim’s phone too.
 

Ferrus Animus

42
Validated User
I don't buy this argument because it relies on the assumption that there is some kind of natural market state where bias does not exist and there are no gatekeeping mechanisms in place, which as several people have already alluded to, is a state that Steam has never been in throughout its entire existence.

Censorship and gatekeeping are always de facto occuring through the simple fact of Valve being a corporaton in control of the content it allows on its platform. And we already know for a fact that Valve's staff is absolutely not free from bias, and arguably already exhibits a bias against LGBTQ-friendly content if past experiences are anything to go by.
I think you're ascribing a position to me that I don't hold.

I don't think there's a biasless store or such. But I think that Valve trying to remove biases is a much better situation, given its market position, than trying to add the right biases (given that that tends to backfire.)
 

ResplendentScorpion

neither glitter, nor substance
Validated User
no matter how little interest Valve have in providing a good service.
Steam currently has no competition in terms of quality or breadth of service - both for the customer and for the developer. No other store offers the full array of services Steam provides and Epic in particular have explitidly stated they have no intention to ever compete with Steam in terms of quality of service, intending to rely on exclusives instead.
If you narrow the definition of "good service" to "they should only allow games I deem worthy", you would have a point, but that's a very suspect definition.

I suspect it’s less that Valve believe it, and more that they know it’s bullshit, but have to check anyway. It’s just that bigoted asshats don’t make groundless complaints about the latest Total War game.
You'd be surprised. TW:3K got a lot of hate from the usual suspects for daring to include some of the notable women from the Ro3K.
 
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