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[Exalted 3e] Trying to understand Craft through the Dragon-Blooded

Patkin

ougikawa
Validated User
Okay, so, this is unrelated to the other creative thread I have about Exalted right now, but I'm trying to determine something. Is the way Craft in 3e works, the way projects work, going to make a Terrestrial artificer's life difficult? One of the things that fed a... resentment, I guess you could say, in 1e/2e Craft was how if you were a Terrestrial, there were just Hard Limits on how far you could go, that even if you had Craft 5 (multiple times at that)/Lore 5/Occult 5; you would still eventually come up on a wall where the developers just said "no, no further".

But looking at the 3e rules for Craft, this didn't at least appear to happen explicitly. Like obviously it talks about needs Celestial/Solar workings to do certain high-level First Age shit, but, it doesn't outright bar you from attempting stuff otherwise, and sorcery can be.... fudged around, occasionally. Obviously my head for math has always been a disaster, but it at least seems achievable, particularly for people who optimize and wring every last drop out of the mechanics.

But am I wrong? Is there something in between the lines, of how many successes you need to make in a limited amount of time, that makes it impossible at some point for a suitably motivated Terrestrial crafter to do their schtick? Or can I finally let this resentment go and be free?
 

Tyrrell

Go Play Ars Magica
Validated User
Post #8 of this thread claims that five dot artifacts are doable as a Dragonblooded. Artifact NA is however, against the odds using only the published charms. But there's no way that I'd let an artifact NA be created by a pc without wrapping a whole slew of stories around it anyhow, so be free.
 

Isator Levie

Registered User
Validated User
Off-hand, I think that with the proper Craft Charms and a lot of work put in, Artifact 5 for Terrestrials is notably difficult, but within the realms of possibility.
 

Kelly Pedersen

Active member
Validated User
But am I wrong? Is there something in between the lines, of how many successes you need to make in a limited amount of time, that makes it impossible at some point for a suitably motivated Terrestrial crafter to do their schtick? Or can I finally let this resentment go and be free?
I think you can release that resentment, yes. :) 3e Craft has no arbitrary restrictions on who can attempt a given level of Artifact - the only restrictions are "can you achieve enough successes within the interval". The only level of Artifact that a Dragonblood operating with only a Craft Excellency couldn't technically achieve (assuming very good dice rolls) are Artifact N/As. And with the appropriate charm, they even have a chance of achieving those.
 

Gaius of Xor

Registered User
Validated User
Adding onto the above posts, about a year ago autXautY here laid out their own computations* with similar conclusions. Terrestrials can indeed make Artifact 5 if they really devote themselves to Craft and pick the right Signature. It'll take them longer to reach that point and they shouldn't ever count on Artifact N/A (though that's not much of a meaningful loss, honestly), but they can do it. Given how Lunars shook out on that score, relative reliability for Artifact N/A is almost certainly beyond the reach of any Exalt who's not a Solar, Abyssal, or Infernal (absent a homebrewed new splat where it makes sense or something).

* As a caveat, I think these may have been made using the original manuscript. I don't remember hearing about any significant changes between then and the final release, just leaving that note there in case I'm wrong.
 

Isator Levie

Registered User
Validated User
The only level of Artifact that a Dragonblood operating with only a Craft Excellency couldn't technically achieve (assuming very good dice rolls) are Artifact N/As.
Assuming a Dragon Blooded who has both Craft (Artifact) and some Craft relevant to sword making at 5, with a specialty, was working on a daiklave, their Excellency gives them a maximum dice pool of 17.

Crafting an Artifact is an extended roll with a difficulty of 5, so only successes equal to and exceeding that number count towards the goal. What are very good rolls? I'm gonna say 11 successes. So you get six per roll.

Crafting Artifacts has a terminus of 6.

Going by purely the Excellency, getting 11 out of 17 successes per roll won't get you Artifact 3 (goal number 50). Which I'll remind one is the minimum rating of a daiklave.

Although I'm not considering stunts... a decent stunt and spending Willpower on every roll (which is already scoring 11 out of 17 dice), you'd barely scrape enough for Artifact 3, I think.

Making Artifact 5 using only dice successes would require one to average 21 successes on every roll.
 

Isator Levie

Registered User
Validated User
I did say "assuming very good dice rolls" - I was calculating the math based on what was possible, not necessarily probable.
It's still strictly inaccurate for Artifact 5, and possibly 4 (I feel reasonably confident in proposing that rolling ten 10s on all six rolls is literally impossible). I think that for a thread making a query such as this, it's irresponsible to use language that is functionally misleading but for really strict technicalities.
 

Patkin

ougikawa
Validated User
Hm, both of these calculators seem to be relying on some very clear bottlenecks in the signatures in order to arrive at their numbers. That's a bit disappointing, although I guess I really should've expected that given what I said about the optimization people. Still, I have to admit some minor disappointment that the Air signature (which sounds cool) isn't as much help as the others.
 

Isator Levie

Registered User
Validated User
Hm, both of these calculators seem to be relying on some very clear bottlenecks in the signatures in order to arrive at their numbers. That's a bit disappointing, although I guess I really should've expected that given what I said about the optimization people. Still, I have to admit some minor disappointment that the Air signature (which sounds cool) isn't as much help as the others.
The value I see in the Air signature is that several of the other Dragon Blooded Charms that are good for improving crafting, even outside of the Signatures, also have craft point costs. Strike the Dragon-Anvil (spend a gold point to get double 9s, or at Essence 5, a white point for double 8s) might be one of your best bets, so needing to spend fewer gold points just to make the interval roll has value. Hell, even for an Essence 5 Exalt with two Signatures, the Earth one to add to your terminus costs fifteen gold points, so that's another character who is going to want to spend fewer on the intervals.

Those should also be considered against Talents-to-Obols refinement, which can helpfully convert ultimately useless white points into additional gold points (or at Essence 4, silver points up into more gold points).

The Air signature also costs less, and keep in mind that it, Earth and Fire need to be committed for the duration of a project. When you're at Essence 3, Earth and Fire are demanding something like a quarter of your mote pool.

It probably all depends on what one's concerns have been found to be in crafting while getting up to Essence 3. Has it been getting the successes one needs, or getting the craft points to make the attempt?

I'll also say that, in the case of Dynasts, it's reasonable to say that the Realm has some assets that can help their crafting along a bit. Not something that your player characters are going to have access to as a matter of course, they need to put in some work for their superiors. But things that might make crafting Artifacts of 3 or 4 a bit less onerous. Special tools and workshops and the like (even more than the ones required for attempting superior projects in the first place).
 
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