• The Infractions Forum is available for public view. Please note that if you have been suspended you will need to open a private/incognito browser window to view it.

Final Fantasy XIV

Icarium

Registered User
Validated User
Responses to above on ShB Pre-Patches:
Spoiler: Show
I think the best part is ... I can actually both feel sympathy for some of the Ascians while vilifying their goals and actions.

And honestly, I lean towards unless something we find out really makes things wrong, agreeing with the 14th member who summoned Hydylaen.

The first time, when they summoned Zodiark, they lost half their number.

The second time, when they had him return life instantly, they lost half their number AGAIN.

Honestly, the Paragons really were kind of like children. It's like they could not think of anything but a hammer. We need to fix the world. Rather than using our insane power to slowly terraform (something I am SURE could be done with their abilities), let's instantly have it done. The price is half our population? Okay!

I could so see someone going...yeah, no, this is not right. We need to stop this before we're gone utterly. Even split, it'd be better.
 

Unseenlibrarian

Definitely NOT a Monkey.
Validated User
So thinking about the upcoming Nier alliance raid it got pointed out elsewhere that depending on the sidequests you do,we may have seen a leadin for it.

Spoiler: Show
Specifically, in Northern Kholusia, the rival dwarf tribe to the one we're working with has stumbled upon what they call a 'graveyard of automata' and there's a couple of weird twins, one in black, one in white, poking around at it and talking about world domination...
 

DareDaemon

The Daemon who Dares
Validated User
Responses to above on ShB Pre-Patches:
Spoiler: Show
I think the best part is ... I can actually both feel sympathy for some of the Ascians while vilifying their goals and actions.

And honestly, I lean towards unless something we find out really makes things wrong, agreeing with the 14th member who summoned Hydylaen.

The first time, when they summoned Zodiark, they lost half their number.

The second time, when they had him return life instantly, they lost half their number AGAIN.

Honestly, the Paragons really were kind of like children. It's like they could not think of anything but a hammer. We need to fix the world. Rather than using our insane power to slowly terraform (something I am SURE could be done with their abilities), let's instantly have it done. The price is half our population? Okay!

I could so see someone going...yeah, no, this is not right. We need to stop this before we're gone utterly. Even split, it'd be better.
Spoiler: Show
I also don't think Zodiark is even a solution, sure he seems to have ended the problem at that time, but... the problem wasn't whatever triggered people's powers going out of control. The problem was that the power of creation was too prone to going out of control, and the Zodiark plan seems to have done nothing to to the power of creation.

All it would take for something else to trigger a cascading control failure for the problem to repeat. And then what, sacrifice half the population again?

Better to eliminate the power of creation, and thus, the sundering.
 

Unseenlibrarian

Definitely NOT a Monkey.
Validated User
Responses to above on ShB Pre-Patches:
Spoiler: Show
I think the best part is ... I can actually both feel sympathy for some of the Ascians while vilifying their goals and actions.

And honestly, I lean towards unless something we find out really makes things wrong, agreeing with the 14th member who summoned Hydylaen.

The first time, when they summoned Zodiark, they lost half their number.

The second time, when they had him return life instantly, they lost half their number AGAIN.

Honestly, the Paragons really were kind of like children. It's like they could not think of anything but a hammer. We need to fix the world. Rather than using our insane power to slowly terraform (something I am SURE could be done with their abilities), let's instantly have it done. The price is half our population? Okay!

I could so see someone going...yeah, no, this is not right. We need to stop this before we're gone utterly. Even split, it'd be better.
Spoiler: Show
I am like 90 percent sure the implication is supposed to be that -we- are the missing 14th ascian, or at least the most complete fragment of them.
 

Icarium

Registered User
Validated User
(Chat on Above ShB stuff):
Spoiler: Show
I dunno. I can see what you're saying, but that feels kind of like the magical version of Luddism. I think they needed to /grow up/. I keep calling them children, but honestly their mindset feels very much like certain types of childhood thought processes pre-development. The whole absolute thinking combined with a disregarding of consequences.

And yeah, I think so too, Unseen. I just mean, this here makes me feel even more strongly that Hydylaen was /necessary/.
 

Rabbit Éclair

high in vital bunnytonium
RPGnet Member
Validated User
Last night I healed Vault for the first time, with a newbie tank who was running in leveling gear and with outdated gear in a lot of my own slots, and I think I may need some sort of therapy now.
 

Azaael

Have you the strength?
Validated User
I'm sort of in the idea that

Spoiler: Show
While Hydaelyn may have been necessary, I still don't think she's some lily-white Lawful Good that she paints herself. Granted, this is me using what I know of Final Fantasy, and this game, and rarely are things like they seem THIS much(even if predictions can be made.) I don't think she's evil, but I am pretty sure there's some strong Lawful Neutral 'She'd be willing to do this again, even at the cost of our lives if she felt it necessary' since i'm not sure we'd make it if she decided to split the Source or something.

I'd personally feel better with neither of them around, to be frank. She's basically been hiding this from us(and I'm 100% on the side of the stuff we heard IS the truth, even if it came from the enemy. I don't think the writers-especially one as good as Ishikawa-would make it this cut and dry, especially with how the game tends to go.


As for Character:

Spoiler: Show
Yeah, Emet-Selch was a fantastic 'villain who you could sympathize' with. Even Alisaie-whose generally like one of the Party Goods, said she wouldn't be sure what she'd have done.

That said, re: Zenos-Ishikawa *also* writes him and she actually talked about him a bit in an interview or two. He's only had as much screen time, pound for pound, as Emet-Selch(and after ShB, if you clock in Actual Screen Time, I think they might be about even, hell-remember Zenos-being-ridden-by-Elidibus is Elidibus.) I think, knowing her, and knowing how she's written the most stellar stuff, that we just maybe haven't seen everything yet(again, his backstory was very well written in the book.) Even if he ends up not as deep as Emet-Selch(to be fair, no villain they've had yet has been as compelling as him, IMO), I think Ishikawa has a few surprises in store for him. (I personally think he's tied to us-the copy of the Thordan scene, and the fact he's needing to get back to us-I'd not doubt, given that he's descended from Emet-Selch apparently, that he did something to him as a kid and who knows he may not even BE from this shard. He may have been delivered in.)

Speaking of Elidibus, I'm pretty sure that he set it up for Varis to die there in a quick speed chess gambit. IN the city cutscene earlier, Zenos(in the centurion body), actually seemed to consider the idea of speaking to him('Mayhap Father...nay, I am a stranger to him in this body.'). Plus-Black Rose being light-aspected is something that was not common knowledge; it seemed to be Ascian knowledge.

Zenos was only letting on he wanted to fight us-and made it clear he'd cut his way into the palace no problem. He did say his disdain for the gas, BUT that whole scene where he basically told Elidibus that 'spill your guts and gimme my body back'(and he did, mind you)-I think Elidibus at that point was a big salt factory. Emet wasn't contacting him, Varis wasn't listening to him, and he was scared to fight Zenos, so he decided, I think, to include the knowledge that 'Oh, btw, Zenos, that gas? It's not only a coward's weapon but it's going to kill the WoL. You know, your battle buddy.' And he knew damn well, I think, what Zenos would do with that knowledge before he fucked off to the moon to attempt some other gambit and save face.

(Not that kinslaying is alien to the dysfunctional Galvus clan. Varis either killed or had Titus, his uncle, killed for the throne.)

Also at the end of 4.0, remember Elidibus' rather flatly-delivered line: 'I'm very sorry for your loss. A father should not outlive his son.'
 

ezekiel

Follower of the Way
Validated User
5.0 story spoilers, naturally. Since substantive discussion really does require the whole shebang, I'm not forking out individual stuff.
Spoiler: Show
100% the WoL's soul is the "rebel" 14th Convocation member--they've dropped too many hints for it to be anything else. I don't think they summoned Hydaelyn though; I think they opposed summoning at all as a solution, because it required sacrifice and death at utterly unacceptable levels. It would be super hypocritical to oppose summoning Zodiark and then choose to use the same damn tactic yourself. Further, summoning Hydaelyn would strongly imply that the WoL is Tempered by Hydaelyn, thus negating the moral value of our choices and heroism.

No, I think both summonings were things the WoL opposed, but Hydaelyn less so--because it seems pretty clear that her behavior is unlike what any other primal behaves like. She's not ravenously hungry for aether; in fact, she gives aether to others (in the form of crystals). She doesn't appear to Temper anyone, and even if she does, her commands are highly unlike all other primals, what with them being "hear, think, feel" (in other words, be yourself). When Hydaelyn sundered the world, I suspect the rebel Convocation member was okay with it--because it would render Zodiark inert, and allow the ancients' (and thus Hydaelyn's) "children" to thrive without fear of enduring the same apocalypse the ancients did.

As an aside, I think people aren't quite giving the other 13 Convocation members enough credit. I do think they figured out a true "solution," I just don't think it's a solution you're willing to consider (much like the 14th member was unwilling to). The problem, of course, was that the unchecked Power of Creation allowed even stray thoughts to come to life. Therefore, the solution isn't just to make the scary things go away. It's to make fear itself go away. Zodiark "solves" the problem by rewriting the rules, by preventing even the possibility of apocalypse-causing thoughts--and that is why all Primals summoned the Ascian way Temper things, because Zodiark was made to Temper people--by being Tempered, they could not think the wrong things. The Laws of this Star would thus be rewritten--to prevent the disaster from ever happening again. "My world will have no need for heroes," Emet-Selch tells us, because his world--one enslaved to Zodiark's will--will not have thoughts in it that allow "hero" to have any meaning in the first place.

One final thing. Ardbert's story strongly implies that it is in the nature of the WoL's soul-shards to do as the Source WoL has done: an innate heroic nature or impulse, someone whose soul is called back into the world over and over again to protect it in times of need. (The Echo may be related to this, but how is unclear.) And what else do we know? Such heroes arise on every world when its hour of doom is at hand, but they have failed to prevent a calamity seven times...and failed once, to prevent the Thirteenth from becoming Void, causing all the soul-shards inside to be lost forever. All, that is, except one...Unukalhai. Who has the Echo, and was simply born too late to stop his world from being destroyed by the Flood of Darkness. If I were a betting man, I would bet substantial money that Unukalhai *is* our shard from the Thirteenth, and that very fact is why Elidibus saved him. Since we have now peacefully merged with our shard from the First, we are already the only eight-times-rejoined soul in existence. With Unukalhai present as an Ascian-like spirit (since even the ancients didn't know how to cross the rift between worlds bodily), particularly with him feeling guilty about things, there is a nonzero chance that we build toward peacefully merging with him, too.

Thus setting us on the path to become the only soul--the only soul in all of this star--that could potentially return to its un-sundered state. With Unukalhai, we would be at 10/14; only four shards would remain separate from us. Setting us up for a final confrontation, persumably with a Zenos that has consumed Zodiark and become the ultimate monster. If Elidibus and Zenos can be defeated, we would thus be the only being with the Power of Creation, which could thus let us stand as the Warrior of Balance, protecting each of the remaining five worlds (Source + 4 remaining reflections) without needing Hydaelyn anymore.
 
Last edited:

Azaael

Have you the strength?
Validated User
Continuing spoilers:

Spoiler: Show
I do think that we'll eventually end up back together-mostly anyway-and I do think that in the end, we'll be left to the 'Age of Man' so to speak, at the end of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc, where neither primal exist anymore, because they should not. I totally agree that yeah, Zodiark's way wasn't it-but Hydaelyn's isn't either; the fact that her power can be used to make copies of worlds-shattering souls in the process-isn't necessarily a good thing if it were to get used for bad. I'd feel better with neither one existing at this point, to be honest. And that is an excellent point about Zodiark; Make Fear Itself go away, and there's no more of the bad stuff. I can see where people-who with an accidental bad thought ended up causing a cataclysmic world destruction-would want to maybe turn off that ability, but I can also see why finally they said 'damn there won't be anyone left if this keeps up.'

And Unukalhai is totally one of us, too. I think the post-patches will work into building in with that; Hell, he's there in the Rising Stones, and 5.1 patches are generally 'Catching Up with Things', in my experience(3.1 for example was the fallout of Thordan's death building into the climax of the Dragonsong War, but the real big shit didn't hit the fan until 3.2. 4.1 was more cleaning up Ala Mhigo loose ends, and so on. I reckon 5.1 is going to be chatting it up with the crew and finally hearing that 'uhh war's over, I guess'. Would be a good time for Unukalhai to step in for some talks.) That said, we still, of course, have some more souls that we're a part of. When we're at 10/14, who are the other 4? Are they all on separate shards...or did they actually make it over? We know that people are capable of jumping shards with help/various means, Unukalhai went from 13th to the Source, Ardbert went from the first to the Source, and in the Final Role Quest after you do all four of them, you meet someone else who shard jumped, though they went from somewhere else to the First, they never went to the Source. So who knows. People we know on the Source could be a piece of us who traveled here and we don't know yet.


As for the other side, there's more to Zenos, I think than just 'Eats one, or both, of the Primals, for us to fight'. I mean this Is Ishikawa's writing. He's a fairly simplistic antagonist/rival in his motivations, yes-more of the Force of Nature, 'animal instinct' Baddie, the Kaiju, if you will.

But I don't think they'd be going completely crazy with the tie ins with him if there wasn't more there. The fact that, in a way, he kinda 'saves' the Source(in a WE DID IT PATRICK WE SAVED GARLEMALD way, sure, but he DOES, basically, get rid of the Black Rose threat which was for all intents and purposes the major threat of the Source-and even IF we saved the first the gas still would have, I feel, fucked things up badly enough that it's good its gone), while we took care of the First. They didn't write it like this accidentally even if he did his part in a less than heroic manner. (There was no love lost in that family anyway, Emet didn't seem terribly impressed by the way he snarked at Varis all day, and Varis had killed his uncle for the Emperor spot.)

The Thordan tie-ins from the screens was a big one, as soon as the lights went dark I had a flashback to the Thordan scene. We're both immune to Primal tempering(though so are the others with the Echo so that's not a big deal.) He's the only character who really, soundly, genuinely managed to crush us AND was the guy who we had to truly work to beat.(Ran'jit really didn't get there-he zapped us with some of his weird familiar's paralyzing lightning and then ended up frozen by the Exarch before the latter talked shit to him; I never really felt like he had much of a one-up on us like Zenos did, who whipped our as AND our friends, and more than once, AND effortlessly.) It just feels like they're setting us up for some deeper connection they have planned. Elidibus called him an 'irreplaceable test subject' at the end of 4.0, and Solus zos Galvus, AKA Emet-Selch, was basically *his great grandfather*. I would not be surprised if something went on here.

I can't help but think of Chekov's Gun here; all of this stuff leading up to 'Just A Force of Nature' antagonist will leave that gun unfired, I think. I mean, that might HAPPEN, yeah, but if he doesn't have some sort of tie-in-some sort of past soul tie in thing-then I'd actually be a little disappointed they dropped all those Chekov's like hints for nothing.
 

Monochrome Tide

Someone
Validated User
Spoiler: Show
That seems deeply uncharitable to Hydaelyn. I may just be biased by my intense loathing for the Mandatory Age of Man Has No Need For Gods cliche though.
 
Top Bottom