Final Fantasy XIV

DrFaustus

Humanistic Infernalist
Validated User
I dunno. The WoD weren't really gray to me. They were literally willing to create a joining, killing millions of people on this world, to save theirs. That's beyond gray. Remember, a joining is /catastrophic/. No joining has ever been done so far - by the Ascians - without literal cataclysms on this world, even ignoring everything on the shard dying to rejoin the lifestream.

They were tragic, though. :)
Yeah, if Shadowbringers involves us going all genocidal on the First or whatever that'd make it a hard pass for me at least. I noped out of WoW for that reason too. Hard Men Making Hard Decisions is just banal and always has been.
 

Azaael

Have you the strength?
Validated User
Yeah I definitely have a different idea of gray, then. That said...

When did 'not being lily white all the time' transform into 'we're all 40k characters?' I'm not asking for 'We All Are The Punisher', I'm asking for more stuff like the Lolorito questline.

that said, i mostly play neutral characters(ranging from light to dark), so I guess for me it's 'order of the day.' I rarely play black or white(unless it's to see storylines, like in Swtor.)
 

Icarium

Registered User
Validated User
Well, as I said, for me it's mostly in terms of not being able to choose, and so I don't like it when an MMO wants to paint me Gray.

As an example, most of the Gray options even in SWTOR come off bad. I don't mind being evil (god, Inquisitor is fun) and otherwise, but most of their "Gray" options are just horrid. Some Imperial Agent options are an exception. Least there you can CHOOSE and shape the story a bit.

But for me, I guess, once your plan is to kill more people than Stalin, you don't get to be gray. You're an evil bastard, even if you have a good "reason". :) Thus why while the WoDs were tragic, I don't think they were gray.

And yeah, I don't mind Lolorito, I actually really liked that questline, but I don't really find /us/ gray in that. :)
 

DrFaustus

Humanistic Infernalist
Validated User
Yeah I definitely have a different idea of gray, then. That said...

When did 'not being lily white all the time' transform into 'we're all 40k characters?' I'm not asking for 'We All Are The Punisher', I'm asking for more stuff like the Lolorito questline.

that said, i mostly play neutral characters(ranging from light to dark), so I guess for me it's 'order of the day.' I rarely play black or white(unless it's to see storylines, like in Swtor.)
You're the one who brought up the WoD quest-line as a thing you'd like to see the plot of Shadowbringers emulate.
 

Azaael

Have you the strength?
Validated User
Well I didn't find 'wanting to save our world' a bad intention necessarily. They came off as desperate and tragic rather than edgy and 40k like. I may also, again, have a different idea of what I personally consider gray. I notice my defintion seems to be a bit looser, so I'm probably not going to agree as much as others about certain things(and agree more than others.)

Just my opinion. I didn't get any 'SUPREME 40K' vibes from a group actively weeping that their world, friends, and loved ones were being destroyed by what I guess are Sin-Eaters and there being almost absolutely nothing left of an entire world due to them just wanting to do the right thing.

Some Imperial Agent options are an exception.
I was actually thinking of the Agent story, yeah. It was one of my favorites. (And yeah, Inquisitor was pretty fun/lol.)

My reasoning for considering the Lolorito line 'gray' is that we are actively working with someone who truly is like, scum(and he KNOWS he's scum.) Again, it goes back to intentions and actions. Our intentions are good there; no doubt, but we were still(and still are, really), working with him for those good intentions, even knowing we're basically supporting his scummy ideals. (which btw I LIKE the storyline, a lot. I just think it's fairly gray overall because of what we're doing.)
 

Icarium

Registered User
Validated User
Yeah, to me it's more: Yeah, we can stop him. But we can only stop him by basically declaring: I AM THE LAW and killing him, and that ... in the long run is not gonna work. One person declaring themselves the sole arbiter and taking control is never a good idea.

Hell, that was one of the issues with Gaius, that was his whole mindset in Praetorium. "I AM STRONG AND SO I SHOULD RULE! MIGHT MAKES RIGHT!" :)

I guess to me, a good way to describe it is: I want nuance. Actions and choices. I don't want some sort of forced 'must do evil to be good' situation, because it almost never comes off well. I mean it can, yes, and FFXIV has good writing in general along those lines, but anytime it's applied to a character I play I am leery and FFXIV has its share of misteps, so please no. ;)
 

DrFaustus

Humanistic Infernalist
Validated User
Well I didn't find 'wanting to save our world' a bad intention necessarily. They came off as desperate and tragic rather than edgy and 40k like. I may also, again, have a different idea of what I personally consider gray. I notice my defintion seems to be a bit looser, so I'm probably not going to agree as much as others about certain things(and agree more than others.)

Just my opinion. I didn't get any 'SUPREME 40K' vibes from a group actively weeping that their world, friends, and loved ones were being destroyed by what I guess are Sin-Eaters and there being almost absolutely nothing left of an entire world due to them just wanting to do the right thing.
The diagetic intentions of the PC in a theoretical "lets destroy another world to save ours" plotline aren't the thing that people would object to, or at least not what I'd object to. The problem would be the writers contriving a situation to excuse attempted genocide in the first place-- that objection doesn't exist so much in the WoD questline already in the game, because the person trying to kill billions of people isn't the hero of the story and his goals are not framed as being acceptable or justified, even if they're somewhat understandable. A theoretical plot where the PC tries to do the same thing to another planet wouldn't have that distance-- such a plot would almost necessarily be de-facto apologia for genocide, because the viewer instinctively tries to view the actions of the viewpoint character in the best possible light ESPECIALLY in a game like this one where player and player character are so closely linked.
 

Shade the Lost

Registered User
Validated User
I'll be honest. I'm never going to manage to be lily-white in real life. I like to play out that fantasy in video games, though. Stripping away that possibility as "unrealistic" takes away one of the bigger reasons why I enjoy RPGs. Playing the paragon tends to be fun. Being turned into a character where I can't call them good anymore so much as being forced to play someone driven by their own desires that frequently conflict with others... fine, it's human, but that really quickly slides into "actually, being a warrior means being a shitty person with their hands soaked in blood, and it'd really be better if we all learned to get along." That isn't what I'm looking for from my MMOs.

I didn't like working with Lolorito, but it didn't feel like we were working with/for him directly so much as he was kinda making introductions for us while doing his own business. So we weren't helping him be a shitty person, we were getting helped (by a shitty person) to be good people. It's not great to more or less owe him a favor or three for that, but that's a bridge we'll burn when we get to it.
 

Icarium

Registered User
Validated User
Yup.

I liked Lolorito because we did nothing wrong, and opened the door to possibly Nanamo using this to change Ul'dah. It's the difference between burning the system down and changing it from within. Usually - not always, but usually - the latter is better for the people involved.
 

Azaael

Have you the strength?
Validated User
I personally just like to...play things character by character. I like playing everything. I have several alts that run the wide array from paragon to even bad guys let alone 'renegade'(to use the ME term.) Usually when I play choice-like games(Bioware, etc), I do several playthroughs to see the stories. I don't blame others for not, of course, but it's something I often like to do, so for me I'm decently okay with it(and because my 'default' in a lot of games is a fairly basic neutral/pragmatic/'lets try to keep things halfway decent but not be afraid to break a few things in the process if necessary', it probably wears a bit less on me to see neutral acts. (That said, I'm still able to RP my good guys in XIV with little trouble, even doing things like helping Lolorito for the better good in the end, or turning a blind eye to Gridania's horrid racism and Limsa's imperialism and the like.)

I saw a few comments around some of my areas online that actually BfA got people scared whenever they hear the term 'morally gray.' I guess I can't blame them for that. :p That said, I am a choice supporter. I'm again saying I just want to see more of the DRK type quests and stuff in, not 'And now, you get to shoot puppies to save the First!' That's just lazy.

I mean AS someone who, as said, likes to play all sides, I found BfA abysmal, but that was for a lot of reasons-for one it just made no sense from the narrative side that after desposing one tyrant why a group would just like, sit there and put up with a 2nd; like my brain just couldn't comprehend that, willing suspension of disbelief was broken, and while I DO appreciate the window dressing choices-which are leaning toward the canon being 'Horde Gets Rid of the Superbad' by the look-the way the entire thing was presented was so unbelievable I just couldn't take it. Like, the Lolorito plot of 'getting help by a shitty person for a good cause and letting him do his shitty things in the meantime' even though we didn't have a choice there was believable(I wasn't saying it wasn't btw, I again liked that plot), and it was something I could see any of my characters doing(which I think, if you're not going to offer choice, is a decent way to write something.)

My neutral characters would have seen it as a pragmatic choice even if they wanted to punt him(look, they're neutral, not heartless :p), my good guys would see it as the best choice in a bad situation with most people, and my bad guys...well funny thing there is my *bad guys* I see having the most trouble with that quest since they're Imperials and why the fuck do they care about a mustache-twirling greedy little potato savage. Kinda funny how that turned out. (If I were playing a bad guy merchant type, they'd probably jump in on it, of course, with a chance that they could usurp him.)
 
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