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'gamergate' is bad and all, but lets not forget the REAL victims here

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Matt.Ceb

40 Years of Unknown Pleasures
Validated User
What would be really helpful is if a wide range of the international population would begin to just STOP identifying so strongly with just one or two or three damn elements of their self.

I'm a goth.
I'm a roleplayer.
I'm a metalhead.
I'm a gamer.
I'm a rivethead.
I'm a romantic.
I'm a social worker.
I'm a teacher.
I'm a kinkster.
I'm an asshole.
I'm a boardgamer.
I'm a Battletech guy.
I'm a Shadowrun guy.
I'm a Mage:the Ascension guy.
I'm a Fading Suns guy.
I'm a guy who despises the "new" FASA for what they did to one of his most beloved childhood/teenage companies.
I'm a guy who does the same with EA's "Origin".
I'm a guy who enjoys indie games.
I'm a guy who spend over 400hrs of game time in both Skyrim AND Europa Universaliy IV.
I'm a guy who loves Depeche Mode. And Deine Lakaien. And Duke Ellington. And Fear Factory. And Miles Davis. And Roy Orbison. And Led Zeppelin. And The Streets. And Run DMC. And Die Fantastischen Vier. And Nine Inch Nails. And Front 242. And Clair Obscure. And Indochine. And Bohren und der Club of Gore. And The Smiths. And The Cure. And Jehtro Tull. And Juno Reactor. And and and and.


And most people are like that.
We are not defined but just "that one thing". We're defined by all of it.
And if people are lambasting "gamers", they are targeting a very specific subset of "people who play videogames". Namely the ones who send death-threats to people who nerf gun stats, who include LGBT romances and who don't give perfect scores to their favourite games. ... And. Fuck. Those. "Gamers".
 

Binkie

Registered User
Validated User
We are asking indie developers, AAA developers, and other folks to stop branding gamers as neckbearded, misogynistic, hatefueled, ignorant, homophobic, idiots.
This guy should think about what it would take for developers to "bite the hand that feeds them" - no professional person wants to criticise their customers. It's bad for business. But the gamer hate machine is targetting the friends and colleagues of game developers. No one wants to see the cool chick you hang out with at conferences sometimes being subjected to a campaign of harassment and intimidation. And it may not be all gamers, but it isn't a small minority either - just mention Anita Sarkeesian on any random geek forum and you will get at least one guy who hates her. (Probably not here because this forum is heavily moderated towards inclusion)
 

Binkie

Registered User
Validated User
What would be really helpful is if a wide range of the international population would begin to just STOP identifying so strongly with just one or two or three damn elements of their self.
[sexist generalization]There's just something in the male psyche that wants to go and attack the people over the next hill with spears, because they are *different* and therefore wrong, and they have *stuff* that is rightfully ours.
 

Spectralent

Time for octopi
Validated User
I'm sure there are a lot of gamers who are spewing vile stuff over the internet. I'm also sure there are substantially more who are not or only dimly aware of things waking up to "WHY ARE YOU SUCH A SHITEATING FUCKNUGGET YOU NECKBEARD MANCHILD" and for some baffling reason feel a bit attacked. No, what some people have been doing is decidedly not on, but to there's been a lot of rather indiscriminate backlash against that that's catching people who just hang around a forum to talk about mods or something and are now being told (even if only by a few loud voices) they're satan and don't deserve to exist. I'm not surprised there's backlash-backlash against that. I think it's easy to forget this forum is incredibly socially aware and progressive (it's why I read it, at least), and a vast majority of gaming communities aren't.

EDIT: I mean, hell, the original incidents were on twitter and 4chan; the backlash to that's been on the BBC. I know which one I reckon is going to be seen by more people.
 
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Matt.Ceb

40 Years of Unknown Pleasures
Validated User
I think it's easy to forget this forum is incredibly socially aware and progressive (it's why I read it, at least), and a vast majority of gaming communities aren't.
... And that's the damn problem, really. "Not being socially aware and progressive" should not be something to be defended, used as a defense or acknowledged as just the common, accepted status quo.

The single fact that most gaming communities aren't socially aware and progressive is pretty damn damning, if you ask me. There's no excuse for this. There is no "both sides" for this. This is one of those issues where there IS a right side. And the right side is "accepting and including men and women of all races, creeds and sexual orientations (or lack thereof) without so much as a squeak."


And it seems that 2014 is far enough into the "future" that some seriously direct steps need to be taken to make sure that gaming fandoms is dragged into this inclusive state of affairs. And it should not be lamented if this will lose a part of the audience. Because some people are just not worth keeping.

I don't WANT to have sexists, racists, homophobes, transphobes and xenophobes be treated as "equally valued customers". They should not be. Their fears should not be a factor is anyone's deliberation. The fact that they still exert influence, as a market, over the people financing AAA and AA games development is something that should be fought and stopped.

I've seen so many female friends (and my sis and my cousin) get shat on on the internet for being women who dare to play games not typcially associated with women. It's been going on for something over 10 years now. ... It's time that it stops. And if it needs a campaign "from above" to do this, as "from within" clearly doesn't work, then so be it.

Because the old gods know, everything else seems to have no damn effect on the loudmouthed haters. :(
 

Ewoklord

Not a hero, never was.
Validated User
What would be really helpful is if a wide range of the international population would begin to just STOP identifying so strongly with just one or two or three damn elements of their self.
This is somewhat unrelated, but I've noticed this as a problem all over the internet, and leaking into how people act in the real world, too. Now, I'm pretty young, so maybe this has been going on forever, or maybe it's just something in my age-group, but I've seen a bunch of people, usually those into more nerdy things, think they need to define themselves by one thing. Usually, now, it seems to be fandoms. They're a brony, they're a whovian, they're so into anime that they don't talk about anything else. They become "That anime guy," or just "That [blank] guy." And then they view that as a good thing. Like, they're so insecure with their own personality that getting people to identify them by one thing is viewed as a positive. I don't get it. I think the internet has fed into this, creating a sort of echo chamber where these people think they can only be into one thing because every day they talk to people just about this one thing. As someone their age-group, I'm into a bunch of different shit, and I'll talk to you about any of it. People know me as "That guy who's into everything." I watch Doctor Who, I've seen a bit of MLP, I watch some good anime, I play video games, I watch a bunch of movies. And I think most people my age could do the same, but they feel like they're restricted to one thing. Like they need to simplify themselves into a stereotype so people get them. It's a thing I've really noticed lately, and while it's kind of annoying (especially trying to bring up any other subject with them) it's also kind of sad.

Anyway, unrelated tangent. Move along, move along.
 

Matt.Ceb

40 Years of Unknown Pleasures
Validated User
This is somewhat unrelated, but I've noticed this as a problem all over the internet, and leaking into how people act in the real world, too. Now, I'm pretty young, so maybe this has been going on forever, [...]
Sadly, it has. *sighs*

When I was young, the vast majority of Goths hated anything rap/hip-hop related. Metalheads hated pop. Rivetheads hated the romantic stuff. Pop-affinity people hated/dismissed anything NOT pop... And that's just music.

Hell, the "PC gamer vs. Console gamer" thing is not new, either.

Star Wars vs. Star Trek.

And even further back in time, and further from pop-culture sub-cultures: The whole stupid "Science vs. Humanities vs. Economics" tribalism bullshit in Academia.

Pathetic, really. :(
 
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Catharsis Cat

Live Action Anime Girl
Validated User
Oh, boo-hoo.
Okay this choo-choo train has long since un off it's tracks so I am just going to be straight up about this:

This full on we are against bad stuff, therefore anyone who objects to anything we say is for bad stuff needs to go. It needs to be toned down a tad.

Particularly for for Cis-Het males.* You're not the group getting targetted here, you aren't getting the quite same level hate thrown at you when things flare up. And power and dominance is the kind of toxic masculinity stuff we want to get rid of, please don't add any more of it if you can ehlp it, even if it is nominally for a good cause.

This doesn't mean let assholes go unpunished, please do report there behaviour ban them from your goups and events, etc. But don't go slinging insults that is just going to provoke them into doing some more hateful stuff. And don't go hitting other people in the crossfire with unrelated insults that have nothing to do with bad behaviour, because it's not really getting anyone up and motivated to fix things.

*possibly white-cist-het males, but a lot of stuff I hear is fom the much more racially diverse fighting game community. I am not exclusing eveyone else either, though in the case of people in groups being targetted I can at least better understand their frustration, so I don't really want to be telling them how to feel, especially if I haven't walked in their shoes.

----

And as I said in the previous thread before I don't like the term gamer at all, it's a dumb made up term where no one can agree on what it means. Which is part of the reason why I don't like people insulting "gamers" no one can agree on who they are, so who exactly are you instuling here? And I am not objecting to calling player or the community out on bullshit, I am objecting to throwing around all those extra unesseacry insults based on some steretype. Feel fee to say the gaming community is mysogynistic I am not disagreesing with you there. Continue to do so, calling things out the way they are is good. I am against the generic virgin basement dweller and other stupid insults that come up and those are the things I am objecting against above.

(I am not a cis-het male but I do play video games and the whole lives with parent is a very sore spot for me, so I especially don't like that kind of stuff.)
 
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Bailywolf

bwakbwak
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
RPGnet Member
Validated User
What irks me about this poll, and similar reaction sentiment, is that there's an established and honorable way of handling things when part (some, most, a few - whatever) of your community or group or identity block go off the deep end and turn into raging entitled fucking assholes. You apologize. You acknowledge without reservation. You make genuine changes to address this problem, to identify those responsible, and to marginalize or sanction them. If the group is formal, then kick them the fuck out. If informal, then call them out. Demonstrate "not all gamers". Break the geek fallacies and don't circle the wagons. Own the community's damage, and try to fix it. Do so openly, and honestly.

Basically, do what the developers and forward thinking members of the gamer subcultures have been doing.

You support the victims. You don't appropriate victimhood to try and evade collective responsibility. You don't try and make the whole thing all about you.

Wrong has been done in our name. It behooves us to be humble as we address it.

-B
 
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Devil's Avocado

Registered User
Validated User
I've seen so many female friends (and my sis and my cousin) get shat on on the internet for being women who dare to play games not typcially associated with women.
So have I. However, the problem is that they are also identifying with the term "gamer", especially the younger ones.

So the kind of scattergun approach we've been seeing is going to be catching them in the crossfire, regardless of intention.

If you are telling them that gamers are scum, then you are unavoidably also telling them that they don't count as gamers. Which is at least part of the problem in the first place.
 
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