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'gamergate' is bad and all, but lets not forget the REAL victims here

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Ewoklord

Not a hero, never was.
Validated User
Basically, do what the developers and forward thinking members of the gamer subcultures have been doing.
As sad as this situation is, it has really brought upon me a new-found respect for game developers. They just seem to be overall a generally progressive group. It's nice.
 

Matt.Ceb

40 Years of Unknown Pleasures
Validated User
Okay this choo-choo train has long since un off it's tracks so I am just going to be straight up about this:

This full on we are against bad stuff, therefore anyone who objects to anything we say is for bad stuff needs to go. It is not helping.

Especially for for Cis-Het males.* You're not the group getting targetted here, you aren't getting the same level hate thrown at you when things flare up. And power and dominance is the kind of toxic masculinity stuff we want to get rid of, please don't add any more of it, even if you say it's for a good cause.
Oh, bullshit.
Whenever I tell people to stop using "gay" or "retard" or even shittier terms as an insult, I get treated just the same way an actually gay person is treated. The others don't know that I'm not, and don't care that I'm not. The same for telling people to stop using racial prerogatives.

I'm sick and tired of it, even as a cis-het male. I get that shit thrown in my face all the damn time when I stop being silent and tell others to stop being dicks.

So I should just lean back and ignore and not stir things up? No. Sorry. Just no.

I also experience how my girlfriend and my closest female friends get treated every week.

I get more than enough of this to be directly affected.
And I really have no sympathy for people for defend this behaviour in any way. It's indefensible.

The whole backlash-backlash now is because it's being attacked directly and from "powerful" places for the first time and the people who are being attacked don't know how to deal with it. And those attacks are necessary, because all the stuff that has gone before has not helped. The Steam forums, Youtube comments, in-game voice-chat... It's filled with hate and bile directed at minorities. Black youtubers get shit thrown in their face whenever somebody notices that they're black. Female youtubers get attacked with sexist bullshit, stalking and sexual harassment with every video they release. People are being silenced and driven away because the combined might of the directed hate machine is just so damn wide-spread and powerful.

Not directly tackling it will not help anybody.
 

Sigrid Hex

Social Justice Valkyrie
RPGnet Member
Validated User
(or lack thereof)
Thanks! I always get left out of these. :)

I've seen so many female friends (and my sis and my cousin) get shat on on the internet for being women who dare to play games not typcially associated with women. It's been going on for something over 10 years now. ... It's time that it stops. And if it needs a campaign "from above" to do this, as "from within" clearly doesn't work, then so be it.
I am kinda-sorta in this camp. I've been harassed a lot during my gameplaying days, but that's mostly a thing of the past these days, to be honest. I mean, when I started in City of Heroes in 2004, and later WoW, it was almost unbearably stalkerish (I mean you'd get a/s/l tells for just playing a female character). Today, it rarely happens. So there has been progress over the past 10 years. At least in-game. I don't remember these internet rage-ons happening in 2004 though.
 

Catharsis Cat

Live Action Anime Girl
Validated User
Oh, bullshit.
Whenever I tell people to stop using "gay" or "retard" or even shittier terms as an insult, I get treated just the same way an actually gay person is treated. The others don't know that I'm not, and don't care that I'm not. The same for telling people to stop using racial prerogatives.
Not really. People who are visibly different don't have to say a single thing to come under fire. Some groups can run the risk of violence. (at least in some situations, not sure if that's much a video games thing) There is a power difference.

Beyond that you're completely ignoring the part where I said calling out shitty behaviour is a good thing and that I am objecting to unrelated insults. (unless I edited that part in later I don't remember)

I have been in the situation where people say shitty thing in real life and no one wanted to help or was too intimidated to. Having people speak out really made a difference. That definitely needs some active putting down of the foot. (on the internet too for that matter)
 
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Matt.Ceb

40 Years of Unknown Pleasures
Validated User
Ugh. I just noticed how they're starting to use "corruption in the industry" as a dog-whistle for "feminist influence". How wonderful... :(


There's just so much ineffectiveness going around now:
The larger companies seem not inclined to actually properly moderate their social presence.
Twitter and Facebook are seemingly doing everything they possibly can to actually FIGHT anything that could be called a proper way of dealing with reports on hate-speech and harassment. (With facebook apparently staffed by people who ban anything left-wing and progressive while happy to let actually Nazi-run pages stand unchallenged...)
Google has done nothing about hateful Youtube comments, as you can't even report them if you aren't the one directly targetted, and IF you report such things that are directly targeted at you, nothing ever happens (I've had 12 reports of attacks against me ignored now.).
An in the case of Ms. Sarkeesian, even the POLICE are unwilling to actually do their job.


If all those actors would get their shit together and actually start moderating and policing and investigating all the hate, the discussion about all this would be that much calmer. Better. Useful. But they're not. And people are being driven away by death-threats, doxxing, stalkers and insults. (And whatever the hell is now happening with the "swatting" thing...)

But they're not. They're either unwilling or uninclined to do that.

And it stinks.
It stinks so damn much. :(


I STILL can't believe that people are able to issue online death-threats and that they're NOT immediately reported to and investigated and charged by the proper national authorities. This needs to be stopped. Hard. And twitter and youtube and facebook need to help the judicial systems of every nation going after such stuff with every bit of data they have on those commuting those crimes. And death-threats ARE crimes. ... I'm sorry. I'm genuinely boggled why this is actually a thing that keeps happening without consequences... :(
 

Catharsis Cat

Live Action Anime Girl
Validated User
I actually recall some kids getting in trouble for just plain vanilla non-bigoted* death threat that were "jokes".

A lot of people in the video games community was up in arms about censorship for that one. Which is extremely messed up.

*because I don't want this to look like I am refuting xclaims of facebook bias by any means.

----

Also speaking of real victims has anyone else here heard of "Vivian James"

the second link is mostly provided in an attempt at hearing it from the communitiesw mouths.

Seems to be a ridiculous strawman to me, dividing female gamer into "good real video gamers" and presumably all the rest who aren't.
 
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Matt.Ceb

40 Years of Unknown Pleasures
Validated User
Not really. People who are visibly different don't have to say a single thing to come under fire. Some groups can run the risk of violence. (at least in some situations, not sure if that's much a video games thing) There is a power difference.
That's true. :(
I only get hit when I speak up, you get hit whenever it comes up... (

Beyond that you're completely ignoring the part where I said calling out shitty behaviour is a good thing and that I am objecting to unrelated insults. (unless I edited that part in later I don't remember)
Yeah. I just re-read your post, and that part wasn't in there when I replied. Sorry for that, then! :(

Generally, sorry. This stuff is really close to home for various reasons. :-/

I have been in the situation where people say shitty thing in real life and no one wanted to help or was too intimidated to. Having people speak out really made a difference. That definitely needs some active putting down of the foot. (on the internet too for that matter)
Yeah. I make a point of speaking up in such things online and in real-life. I've helped the local police to track down and arrest some Nazis almost a decade ago, simply because I was fed up and tired of the shit they were doing around my neighbourhood, even though that made them see my face.

I also speak up in the train/bus/mall whenever I hear any sort of x-phobic or x-ist bullshit, no matter how initimidating the people spewing it look. Most of the time, the public DOES rally behind the people that are targets of abuse, even if its (the public) often too scared/apathetic to speak up in the first place.
 

Ithaeur

Relic Unicorn
RPGnet Member
Validated User
One theory I've seen: It's an extinction burst. Certain segments of gamer culture (what I like to call "entitled shits") are throwing a tantrum because things are changing and their familiar behavior-reward buttons aren't working anymore. The upside is that this kind of freakout allegedly presages a lasting victory.
Sounds damn plausible to me. Couldn't be happier if this turns out to be true.
 

Therion

Hi there!
RPGnet Member
Validated User
I think the petition is misguided but understandable, just like a lot of things on the internet. In this particular matter I'd like to think that most people.. most gamers don't know the full extent to where and how this started. So you get the people hearing about Zoe Quinn and taking a stand based on whatever it is they heard, or Anita Sarkeesian or Phil Fish or whatever or whoever.

So you get babylonian speech confusion. Sure, people should do a bit of research, but to be frank, this whole thing is so tangled it's hard to get to the bottom of it.
 
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