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Gaming as a Girl

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CrownedSun

Registered User
Validated User
I think the saddest thing I've seen generated by this thread is the notes, PMs and messages I've gotten here and elsewhere from women thanking me for posting this and then telling me how brave I am. I don't feel brave, I just feel like I had something to say.
As a note, and I don't know if anyone else has commented upon this-- I read this entire thread earlier, couldn't think of precisely something to say in response, and moved on at the urging of Iolithae Septimian after I got drawn into the hideousness that was the Knights of the Scarlet Women nonsense, but haven't read the thread past this post yet --and while it's good that you don't "feel" brave... the fact that others think you are is quite understandable.

Just look at the response you've gotten! It obviously doesn't bother you, and that's a good thing that you're strong enough to take it all. But, the mere fact that this thread has gotten such a huge upwelling of responses that it has really showcases the point that you and others have been making. I wouldn't want to take the kind of criticism that you've been getting off this thread, especially considering that the original post is basically nothing but harmless observations. Yet, you are, and not every woman is going to want to take the amount of backlash that you've already taken just to bring this kind of stuff to light. Nor should they feel obligated to do so; like I said! I wouldn't want to take the flak you've taken!

I think it's criminal that you agonized for two hours to post this, but I'm very glad that you did, even if as a student of human behavior I didn't find anything particular novel here. Except for the fact that people actually believe that females aren't treated any differently than males. Not just in gaming but in general; even the most cursory self-examination of anyone's own experiences should reveal that to be complete nonsense. As a note of clarification, those differences in behavior aren't always a bad thing and don't always constitute 'sexism' but to ignore them with blase disinterest to the point of effectively ridiculing someone for pointing out an example of them seems delusional to me.
 

zenten

Active member
Validated User
I think the saddest thing I've seen generated by this thread is the notes, PMs and messages I've gotten here and elsewhere from women thanking me for posting this and then telling me how brave I am. I don't feel brave, I just feel like I had something to say.

But then, I agonized for 2 hours before posting this. Two hours where I had to ask the opinions of my closest friends. Where I didn't want to put it up for fear of the backlash or the derision. And you know what? After posting it, I'm not so afraid anymore. If I had to do this again, I think I could I think it wouldn't take 2 hours of self-doubt to stop being afraid of being told that my experiences are wrong and my fault. So thanks to everyone in this thread who supported me and, at least, respected my opinion. I really appreciate it.
Thank you for posting this :)
 

Gilbetron

cried twice in his life
Validated User
2) What. The. FUCK??? I mean, I was like 12 or 13 when I figured out that rape is bad... like, really, really, REALLY bad, like maybe-not-quite-murder-but-real-damn-close bad.
I'd like to gently point out that you regularly talk about "killing people and taking their stuff".

Gently, because I kinda like my stuff ... which includes my life ;)

It always causes me to blink confusedly when someone says, more or less, "I just want to kill someone when they use the word 'rape' casually".
 

Arevashti

Aspiring World-Builder
Validated User
Overall I think game stores are female hostile environs, with a few exceptions.

As an example, 2/3 of the RPers and 1/2 of the 40k players I knew in uni were female, but the local game store was never inhabited by any of them more than once.

Why this is? It is hard to say.
While the "not-so-FLGS" that drove me to buy all of my games online has been an anomaly in my experience, I'm sure I've talked about it before.
 

Topher

Member
RPGnet Member
Banned
My experience, thus, is that neither nice nor calm are required elements to such education, and much of the pleading for them is a cry of "I don't actually want to think about this; please stop making me uncomfortable".
Pretty much. I think that "please stop making me uncomfortable" is at the root of most kneejerk denials of [X]-ism (as seen in this thread, for example) and forms most of the basis for resistance to the idea of social privilege, as well.

Luckily (?) I have no reluctance whatsoever to make people feel uncomfortable in these specific circumstances. As a very influential mentor of mine once pointed out, it's when we're most uncomfortable that we're most likely to be learning something important.

Topher
 

Strange Visitor

Grumpy Grognard
Validated User
My experience, thus, is that neither nice nor calm are required elements to such education, and much of the pleading for them is a cry of "I don't actually want to think about this; please stop making me uncomfortable".
While I agree that sometimes a nice big hammer will do the job fine (its sometimes done so with me), I do have to note that there are people who will reflectively take the other side if you go after them that way (I have to work not to drop into that in fact). You can make an argument that's a stupid, overemotional way to deal with things, but its still reality that there's a lot of people out there who do, specifically, respond contrarian in such circumstances. So you at least need to ask yourself if its worth your while to try and get through to them (someone has the perfect right to say it isn't, but they do need to be aware they're losing potential converts doing so).
 

Simsum

Retired User
My experience, thus, is that neither nice nor calm are required elements to such education, and much of the pleading for them is a cry of "I don't actually want to think about this; please stop making me uncomfortable".
Anecdotal & stuffs, but in my experience it depends entirely on who you're talking to. More open-minded people respond well to the kind of education Curt provided you (thank you Curt, whomever you are). Others will seize on anything that can possibly be construed as insulting or less than polite, as justification for ignoring reason. Others still will more or less politely tell you to drop dead.

Not that it's surprising. Why would anyone want to be forced into the realisation that they're being foolish and unlikable?

As for myself, I've long since come to the conclusion that trying change people isn't a good use of my time. There really are lots of people who try to be respectful of everyone who returns the favour, without needing any prompting. In total I nerd game (not just RPGs) with 12 other people, and every one of them fit that description. More so than I do, to be honest.

If I was to give advice based on my own experience, it would be two things: firstly, intent is more important than result. The English language is pretty much built to discriminate, as are all the cultures of the world. The best you can hope for is that people try to be better than they're programmed to be.
Secondly, don't play with people who don't try. Maybe you can teach them, maybe you can't. Either way though, your time is almost certainly better spent with better people.
 

Cerulean Lion

Social Justice Christian
Validated User
I think his point is most guys, especially the sexist ones would respond better to "Guy, you're being a jerk to me, stop that." than to "Guy, you're being sexist, stop that." If nothing else because one is an accusation you can make of friends and can't be interpreted as name calling. People can act sexist without being overall sexist but a lot of people understand "You are acting sexist" as "You are a bad person" rather than "That is bad, stop that."


Not that hard, judging by these threads.
Of course, the problem with this is that it shunts the responsiblity of preventing dickishness on the oppressed. Not only do you have to muster up the courage to call out the umpteenth jerk on his priviledged, assholish behaviour, you also have to do it so his precious little feelings don't get hurt, and afterwards hug him and gently stroke his hair and assure him that he's still a good person.
Hmm.
I think Resplendent Scorpion is saying "Technique A usually works better than technique B".
Not "Don't hurt their little feelings, and be sure to comfort and reassure them after".
 

Bren at RPG Net

Registered User
Validated User
In a thread in Tangency, I brought these up, in front of Curt. And he did not gently educate me. He took the arguments apart, while making it fairly clear that they were stupid ideas and I was a stupid person for listening to them.

My experience, thus, is that neither nice nor calm are required elements to such education, and much of the pleading for them is a cry of "I don't actually want to think about this; please stop making me uncomfortable".
Logically refuting poorly formulated opinions works well for convincing me. The bolded part is what seemed convincing (to me) in your experience. If Curt belittled you for being stupid and having stupid ideas but didn't bother to refute your ideas, I'm thinking you wouldn't have changed your mind. I know that sort of response would never change my mind.

Nice is not required, however rude and agitated is easy to lump into the same category as the person who is loudly arguing with themselves at the bus stop or that guy haranguing the students at university about their sinful lifestyle and how they are all going to hell.
 
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