[Heroes Against Darkness] This is my kind of D&D clone

Skywalker

Back Off the Buddha!
Validated User
#41
I was going to go with PCs having their Int Bonus in Skills. However, as I don't like Class Skill lists, I feel the need to add Class into the equation like in C&C.

So, you get +2 for either having the Skill or the task being a Class related activity (often the case with the Class suggested Skills) or a total of +5 for both.
 
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Justin Halliday

Registered User
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#42
Hi guys, I totally missed this thread because the traffic's been going straight to DriveThruRPG (which I can't see), rather than to my blog (which I can see):

http://heroesagainstdarkness.blogspot.com

Skywalker, I love the solution to the hybrid classes, it seems like a good way of simply combining two classes. AslanC and I had previously had some discussions about cross-classes and created some new classes in previous threads. As he's pointed out though, I haven't had enough time to dedicate to Heroes Against Darkness recently (damn those Hero Kids...)

As for the skill lists, HAD doesn't use Intelligence for any mechanical elements (all magic is from Wisdom), so bringing the entire skill system under Intelligence could prove elegant. One of the things to consider is that some classes are more demanding of the character's ability scores than others. For example, Hospiters require good scores in Strength (for melee attacks), Dexterity (for AD), Constitution (for HP) and Wisdom (for magic bonus) whereas a Warlock really only needs good Wisdom, giving them lots of latitude to bump other abilities at their discretion.

Perhaps a HAD skill system could take into account the class and Intelligence bonus or some other combination of class, Intelligence, and level.

In a campaign I ran, I allowed the characters skills equal to half their Intelligence score, which gives a good starting spread of skills, but doesn't increase much as characters gain levels. The trick is to provide a a good starting number of skills, then allow characters to become more versatile over the course of their development. Another possibility along these lines is:

Skills: Intelligence/2 (rounded down) + 1/2 Level Bonus

Of course, this being Heroes Against Darkness, its codified skill system has to be elegant and simple, so no tables of 'class' skills, no unnecessary restrictions, and not exceptions.
 

Tetsubo

Often bemused...
Validated User
#43
Re: [Heroes Against Darkness] This is my kind of D&D clone

Wow, Radiance is ... dense. It looks very good but I am not sure if I would personally choose it over 4e as it doesn't really tackle my #1 issue with it.
Which is...?

--- Post Updated ---

The use of encounter powers left me dead cold. I just hate that mechanic.
 

AslanC

BE HEROIC!
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#44
Re: [Heroes Against Darkness] This is my kind of D&D clone

Some ideas on the whole multi-classing idea.

I did it like AD&D did. You have the classes, but need to advance each one. So you require the FULL xp amount for each class you are developing. Yes you may be more versatile, but you advance at literally half the rate (or slower) of the single class party members. That's the price of the ride, and I think it works perfectly. YMMV of course.

For skills I had a couple of ideas;

Since melee attack and ranged attack are now class abilities, you don't need the combat skills... So what about doing Backgrounds like in Barbarians of Lemuria? This is more open and allows for a greater application of ideas, without over complicating the math.

Another idea would be to import the Non-Weapon Proficiencies from 2nd Ed AD&D. These would get a lot of the job done, but still require you to use your attributes to resolve more things.

Alternately just give out the points as listed above by Justin and buy skills off the list in the HAD rule book :)

As always YMMV.

Cheers!

P.S. So glad to see some conversation about this game happening. If you guys want, I could add a sub-forum to the Zenith Comics forums for HAD, it would be my pleasure. Let me know.
 

Skywalker

Back Off the Buddha!
Validated User
#45
Skywalker, I love the solution to the hybrid classes, it seems like a good way of simply combining two classes. AslanC and I had previously had some discussions about cross-classes and created some new classes in previous threads. As he's pointed out though, I haven't had enough time to dedicate to Heroes Against Darkness recently (damn those Hero Kids...)
Ta. FWIW it was Hero Kids that brought me to HAD :)

Skills: Intelligence/2 (rounded down) + 1/2 Level Bonus

Of course, this being Heroes Against Darkness, its codified skill system has to be elegant and simple, so no tables of 'class' skills, no unnecessary restrictions, and not exceptions.
I agree with all you comments on Skills. I think bringing Int for number of Skills would be good to give it more mechanical weight.

I personally like the idea of importing some weight into Class too, without the complication of Class Skill lists. It also reduces the number of Skills you need on the page, as the Class accounts for the typical Skill base. As a result, I think you could get away with having Skills equal to Int bonus.
 

Skywalker

Back Off the Buddha!
Validated User
#47
Re: [Heroes Against Darkness] This is my kind of D&D clone

Some ideas on the whole multi-classing idea.

I did it like AD&D did. You have the classes, but need to advance each one. So you require the FULL xp amount for each class you are developing. Yes you may be more versatile, but you advance at literally half the rate (or slower) of the single class party members. That's the price of the ride, and I think it works perfectly. YMMV of course.
The problem is that multiclassing in AD&D1e didn't really work well and it relied on exponential XP charts. In AD&D1e multiclassing effectively meant you were just 1 level behind in both classes. So a 6th level Fighter would be a 5th level Fighter and a 5th level Mage (approximately). I never thought losing 1 level was a sufficient cost for gaining an entire new class at that slightly lower level.

D&D3e is equally flawed by having you pay half your levels to get a new class. So a 6th level Fighter would be a 3rd level Fighter and a 3rd level Mage. This made the PC suck, especially with magic using levels.

4e attempted to fix this by having a new Hybrid class of the same level as the other PCs. It adds versatility for a cost not related to level. What I liked about HAD's Hospiter is that it does AD&D1e's multiclassing but with the improved approach from 4e. It's an elegant solution that can IMO be extended to most other D&D classes, as shown above.

That's why the guidelines I came up with reflect the Hospiter closely. You end up with a Hybrid Class of the same level as other PCs, but you trade a little power in the area each component Class focusses on for added versatility.
 

AslanC

BE HEROIC!
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#48
Re: [Heroes Against Darkness] This is my kind of D&D clone

See and this is why I checked out of D&D all those years ago (somewhere around 1995) and came back for a very short 3.0/3.5 run and the kept running away.

The obsessive need for the system to balance out drives me to distraction. The system you present is good, but to my poor little mind it is so complicated as to the point I won't use it, I want simplicity, not complexity in the rules I use. Now understand, to you it seems uncomplicated and elegant, but to me it isn't.

As for the "1 level behind" thing, it works, it worked for years. We all had fun and it went well. Very few characters ever advanced their levels at the same time of course, so there was usually a more than 1 level disparity between, but that can be handled simply, to my mind.

1st class is primary and requires an extra 10% xp to level.
2nd class is secondary and requires and extra 20% xp to level.
3rd class is and you see where I am going here. This can slow down parallel levelling and provide a concrete cost for being so bloody useful as a character.

That said I rarely allow multi/dual classes characters as I feel they are cheap and would rather make a whole new class to represent that. I do not suffer from the D&D "Oh that's just a Fighter with different window dressing" that many seem to have. I am more to the school of Arcanum RPG, more classes the better! ;)

As always YMMV.
 

Skywalker

Back Off the Buddha!
Validated User
#49
Re: [Heroes Against Darkness] This is my kind of D&D clone

See and this is why I checked out of D&D all those years ago (somewhere around 1995) and came back for a very short 3.0/3.5 run and the kept running away.
Brains work in different ways, I guess :) The guideline of "Average CHP, Proficiencies, Power Progression and Powers (round down)" to create an entire new class is both simple and intuitive IMO. Its an elegant way of matching the existing Hospiter Hybrid Class, as well as introducing many new Hybrid Classes that work fine with the rest of HAD's system.

FWIW the idea is not driven by balance as much as creating Hybrid Classes with minimal effort that work consistently with what's already there. I personally dislike having 2 subsystems when 1 will suffice, which is how I define system elegance.

On saying that, I understand having your favourite subsystems and HAD is light and robust enough to graft them on. So, this is all YMMV :)

As for the "1 level behind" thing, it works, it worked for years.
It did. We used it for years too and it was fun. D&D3e's multiclass system also worked and was fun too. However, neither would replicate the Hospiter in HAD, which seems to achieve the same result as AD&D1e in what seems to be a simpler and more balanced way. It's best of all worlds IMO

That said I rarely allow multi/dual classes characters as I feel they are cheap and would rather make a whole new class to represent that.
That's what the Hybrid Class guidelines do. You make a new class combined from the existing ones and then you play, just like everyone else. Again, the Hospiter is an example of what they look and play like.

FWIW nothing in the guidelines stops you expending the effort to create brand new Classes and Power lists on top of those. The guidelines are just about using what's there already first before adding new rules, with both ease of effort and the confidence that the result will work well.
 
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AslanC

BE HEROIC!
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#50
Re: [Heroes Against Darkness] This is my kind of D&D clone

Brains work in different ways, I guess :) The guideline of "Average CHP, Proficiencies, Power Progression and Powers (round down)" is simple and intuitive IMO and an elegant way of matching the Hospiter as well as introducing many new classes that work with the rest of HAD's system.
I see your point, I do. I just don't like the Hospitaler ;)

FWIW the idea not driven by balance as much as working consistently with what's already there. I personally dislike having 2 subsystems when 1 will suffice. However I understand having your favourite subsystems and HAD is light and robust enough to graft them on. :)
I am not at all advocating a new subsystem, I am saying new classes :)

It did. We used it for years too and it was fun. D&D3e's multiclass system also worked and was fun too. However, neither would replicate the Hospiter in HAD, which seems to achieve the same result as AD&D1e in a simpler and more balanced way. It's best of all worlds IMO

That's what the Hybrid Class guidelines do. You make a new class combined from the existing ones and then you play, just like everyone else. As said, the Hospiter is an example of this.
Again why I suggest more classes and not just slamming two existing ones together. I think that having unique powers is what makes each class special and I wouldn't want my Knight (or Druid) to just be a reskinning of existing mash-up classes.

There is nothing to stop you expending the effort to create brand new Classes and Power lists on top of those. Again, the guidelines are just about using what's there already first before adding new rules.
Agreed!
 
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