Key differences between Fantasy Trip and GURPS Dungeon Fantasy?
- Thread starter vivsavage
- Start date
Forty years of evolution and a different focus.
TFT characters are sparse: a couple of stats, a couple of skills. Its core is a miniature wargame, that can be expanded up into a full RPG.
GURPS characters are detailed: typically a couple of pages of stats, abilities, skills, powers, quirks, equipment. TFT-style map-based beat-by-beat tactical combat is a well-supported option, but not the default. It's a reasonably crunchy build-your-characters system, of which the Dungeon Fantasy books provide tons of pre-built design templates.
TFT's setting is genuine old school, the sort of whipped-together melange that evolved in the old days from tiny-page-count supplements. There are land octopus banditos, because one of the old books had them back in the day and why not.
Dungeon Fantasy's setting is deliberately vague D&D-esque pastiche, with intentional analogues of the usual character classes, races, and abilities one sees in "That Other Game" (as they call it on the official forum, with tongue-cheerfully-in-cheek) and the video games it inspired. They specifically call out that the core templates are designed with the expectation that nothing ever happens in town except shopping.
The big TFT set that recently came out has loads of maps and counters and such.
The DF books are, well, books.
Yes, the systems share some heritage, but they're very different. I might say that TFT is the OD&D to Dungeon Fantasy's Pathfinder (or Munchkin RPG). Not a perfect analogy, but gets you in the ballpark.
TFT characters are sparse: a couple of stats, a couple of skills. Its core is a miniature wargame, that can be expanded up into a full RPG.
GURPS characters are detailed: typically a couple of pages of stats, abilities, skills, powers, quirks, equipment. TFT-style map-based beat-by-beat tactical combat is a well-supported option, but not the default. It's a reasonably crunchy build-your-characters system, of which the Dungeon Fantasy books provide tons of pre-built design templates.
TFT's setting is genuine old school, the sort of whipped-together melange that evolved in the old days from tiny-page-count supplements. There are land octopus banditos, because one of the old books had them back in the day and why not.
Dungeon Fantasy's setting is deliberately vague D&D-esque pastiche, with intentional analogues of the usual character classes, races, and abilities one sees in "That Other Game" (as they call it on the official forum, with tongue-cheerfully-in-cheek) and the video games it inspired. They specifically call out that the core templates are designed with the expectation that nothing ever happens in town except shopping.
The big TFT set that recently came out has loads of maps and counters and such.
The DF books are, well, books.
Yes, the systems share some heritage, but they're very different. I might say that TFT is the OD&D to Dungeon Fantasy's Pathfinder (or Munchkin RPG). Not a perfect analogy, but gets you in the ballpark.
Okay, so TFT has three stats (four if you include move) and you start with an eight in each and get eight points to spend. TFT has talents and spells which give specific abilities but don't have ratings though there are cases where there's higher level versions of a talent or spells weapon proficiency and weapon master for example. GURPS characters have four stats, four associated but independantly modifiable stats, and a wide range of advantages, disadvantages, and skills, all of which might have a rating of some sort.
TFT combat is roll under DX to hit, weapons have a fixed damage and a strength requirement, armor is damage resistance. GURPS combat is roll under weapon skill, foe rolls to defend, roll damage, armour is damage resistance which can be divided by a penetration factor, damage is multiplied by a damage type specific wounding factor after armor. GURPS has options for hit locations and lots of combat options.
Another way of looking at it is this: TFT has one page of weapon stats and about a sixth of a page of armor stats. DF has about six pages of weapon stats and three pages of armor stats.
TFT combat is roll under DX to hit, weapons have a fixed damage and a strength requirement, armor is damage resistance. GURPS combat is roll under weapon skill, foe rolls to defend, roll damage, armour is damage resistance which can be divided by a penetration factor, damage is multiplied by a damage type specific wounding factor after armor. GURPS has options for hit locations and lots of combat options.
Another way of looking at it is this: TFT has one page of weapon stats and about a sixth of a page of armor stats. DF has about six pages of weapon stats and three pages of armor stats.
W
Hey Shadowjack, your bias is showing.
[Sorry couldn't resist a, I hope, friendly poke.]TFT is old but I'm not so sure I'd call it old school so much. It is rules light. 3 stats and a lots of skills. Shadowjack is right it's roots are from a wargame. Basically the rules are how you handle combat. Everything else is left up to the GM. If you like a game whose rules get out of the way of the story, you can do much worse than TFT.
If crunch is more your thing. And there is nothing wrong with that. I enjoy stating up a character just like the next guy, then Gurps Fantasy would be more up your alley. It had more detailed rules and it does have a setting where I don't think TFT you could call that a setting. *shrugs*
Basically for new GMs I'd suggest Gurps Fantasy. For experienced GMs that want to make most of the stuff up and want a rules system that gets out of the way of the game then I'd suggest TFT.
There now my bias is showing too.
It is an eternal frustration to me that SJG hasn't put out a 32 page GURPS Lite Fantasy booklet. I'd do it myself but I keep feeling that it should be compatible with GURPS Magic and that creates IP issues. (yes I've asked) GURPS doesn't have to be particularly heavy. Dungeon Fantasy is a pretty heavy version of the rules with calculated weights for every piece of armor and lots of special abilities on the character sheet. A basic GURPS character can be condensed down onto a playing card in 12 point type.
Hey Shadowjack, your bias is showing.
Hmm, I don't see the bias? They're different systems doing different things.
I used light description for the light system, and crunchy description for the crunchy system, because I think it's fun to match style for style.
If you aren't already aware of it, you may be interested in the fan-made "GURPS Simple Fantasy". It's a fantasy game using only rules from GURPS Lite for Third and Fourth edition, plus GURPS Ultra-lite.
Both games allow you to play campaigns in the same genre, which is "D&D-ish fantasy" where you have a party of adventurers who delve into dungeons, fight monsters, and loot treasure.
The Fantasy Trip is old-school in the sense that it came out when the "old school" was new. As far as I know the recently published new edition is pretty much a reprint of the original, without significant rule changes. There are also some new books for it with adventures and such that came out of subsequent Kickstarter campaigns. It would eventually evolve into GURPS, but is not the same system. It's quite rules light, about on par with 0e D&D as far as the amount of rules is concerned (their details are different, of course).
The Dungeon Fantasy RPG is a version of GURPS that concerns itself exclusively with its chosen genre. It both removes anything that doesn't support it, and adds a bunch of stuff that does . It's still GURPS, however, and fully compatible with GURPS 4th Edition. So it has the same amount of rules, which I would say is roughly equivalent to Pathfinder in amount if you're not familiar with GURPS itself.
Which one is best depends entirely on your personal preferences. I like Dungeon Fantasy, myself, but TFT is also nifty.
My perspective is someone whose first RPG was The Fantasy Trip, and who has played GURPS (mostly home-brew ancient/medieval fantasy settings) ever since, and who still likes TFT and has run my original TFT campaign in GURPS, and who has done a little with the DF RPG, but doesn't much like the D&D-like setting or the super-hero flavor.
The Fantasy Trip's combat system can be learned very quickly, even by children. The very short basic Melee book has most of the combat system in it. It is a fun arena combat game. It's GURPS equivalent is/was Man To Man, but Man To Man is more advanced and complicated than TFT's Advanced Melee was.
If I had to make just one point about TFT, though:
TFT offers a fun, logical, interesting hex mapped tactical combat system, that is very like GURPS Advanced tactical combat, BUT very fast and simplified and accessible to new players.
And, since the logical hex-mapped tactical combat is the main unique thing I think makes TFT & GURPS stand out as great games to play, I think this is the main thing to bear in mind.
We played TFT campaigns heavily from 1980-1986. We looked at D&D from a TFT perspective and thought it was a complete joke because it's so arcane and makes so little sense by comparison. Contrary to a previous comment TFT DOES have a setting (Cidri), and I would say it's actually more developed in terms of usable ready-to-play details than most GURPS world books (which isn't saying much). BUT, it does kind of expect the GM will fill in details, add geography and adventures, but unlike 1980s TFT, there are already now quite a few adventure modules for GMs who don't want to invent their own stuff, and more coming.
My RPG friends and I are into detailed tactical combat, and after 5-6 years of playing TFT, we were ready for something more detailed and realistic, and that was exactly what we found in GURPS Man To Man. I still relate to GURPS as Advanced TFT. And having mastered TFT, GURPS advanced tactical combat was very easy and natural to learn and run.
Now, as for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, well, with my background, I have a very hard time understanding how any people play it without using hex-mapped combat. To me that's like eating a hamburger without any meat or even without any meat-substitute. But comparing it to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy WITH hex-mapped tactical combat, the main differences I see are:
* Combat system complexity / detail level.
* Character complexity level.
* Magic System.
* PC Power Level
* Genre Expectations
* Deadliness Expectations
* Healing Magic
* Combat system complexity / detail level.
TFT combat is a LOT simpler and faster to learn. Once you learn GURPS combat, though, an experienced GM can run it about as easily and almost as quickly.
The overall results may be largely the same, however, and new players may not appreciate the differences.
TFT combat has engagement which results in melee fighters stopping to fight each other. GURPS combat can be much more fluid and chaotic.
TFT combat has very limited defenses. GURPS combat, especially DF combat, tends to have lots of parries, blocks and dodges.
GURPS has many more options for what to do and how to do it combat, and is blow-by-blow one-second turns instead of TFT 5-second turns.
* Character complexity level.
TFT characters are VERY easy and fast to make, and have rather less detail, much fewer options, and no Disadvantages.
GURPS characters CAN be not ALL that much more complex, but modern 4e examples and DF examples tend to be much denser and more detailed. A lot of that detail can be noise (oh really? what ARE the social disadvantages of ZOMBIES? Please list their official metabolic status. Oh are wolves Quadrupeds? Better write that down and add in the point cost!), though that can be ignored.
* Magic System.
Like the combat system, TFT's magic system is also like a simpler ancestor of GURPS Magic. However it does not suffer from many of the things some GURPS players complain about the GURPS Magic system. TFT has fewer spells, more of them are combat-oriented, and wizards know fewer of them. They do use ST-based fatigue to cast them, but you can eventually get powerstones or mana to help, or use apprentices' ST, like in GURPS Magic.
The set of useful spells and their power levels is a bit different. However many/most/all of the spells in TFT have GURPS Magic analogs.
TFT only has one spell list, and it's divided up only by IQ level prerequisite, not by type of spell or type of caster.
* PC Power Level
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy characters are often expected to start out at heroic levels, and get even more heroic with experience. TFT starting characters are just slightly better than average (32 attribute total rather than population average 30, so in GURPS 4e that's maybe +40 points above average people).
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy characters are also D&D-like heroic archetypes with access to heroic larger-than-realistic abilities, such as Heroic Archer, Ridiculous Luck, or Regeneration. TFT characters may be wizards or eventually very capable fighters, but they don't start sprouting D&D-like super-powers.
* Genre Expectations
TFT's Cidri is a fantasy setting, with fantastic creatures and magic and heroes, but it's a logical one. The guidelines for stocking labyrinths to explore mention that the GM should probably think of why the creatures and traps are where they are, how that makes sense and is possible. It also suggests the game world be mapped out on a hex map with terrain that has affects on movement rates and getting lost and so on, and describes towns, nations, and political situations that look like they make plausible sense. The professions of the world are also things that mostly makes sense.
By contrast, Dungeon Fantasy's reasons for things existing seems mainly usually to be because of D&D tropes. There are "Bards" which are super-hero-like wizards-with-musical-instruments, and who have a guild for that, because it's a D&D trope. Also "Druids", "Scouts", and other classes which have guilds of the same type, not because that makes sense, but because ... well I don't know why, but it doesn't seem to me to be logic-based.
I won't try to enumerate the differences, but what I notice is TFT seems to me fantastic but trying to make some sense, and more "its own thing" rather than trying to copy the forms of another game tradition.
* Deadliness Expectations
TFT expects there to be real likelihood of PCs dying even in ordinary encounters, and it mostly provides that with its combat system and power level suggestions.
The TFT campaign book suggests players may have multiple PCs so there can be losses and replacements, and so some can rest serious wounds or do other things while others adventure.
Dungeon Fantasy can do that too, but it has a stronger assumption players will have single PCs and GMs will conspire to try to make the universe not "too" likely to get them killed.
* Healing Magic
TFT has no magic spells that heal damage. It has healing potions that heal one point of damage, and cost $150, and may not be available. Healers heal 2 or 3 points, beyond which a wound will need 2 days' bed rest per point.
TFT characters die when their ST is reduced below 0, even by one point, unless something (see above) raises them to 0 or more within an hour.
Dungeon Fantasy includes healing spells from GURPS Magic, which are very powerful at healing people, and there are also other healing talents and potions and so on.
GURPS characters don't die until they reach ST x -1, and then they get a roll to avoid dying that heroes tend to be likely to make, etc.
i.e., It's a lot easier to die in TFT than in Dungeon Fantasy. It's also very likely that on prolonged adventures, PCs will actually have to manage and care a lot about how injured their people are, and try to get them to safety where they can rest safely, etc.
The Fantasy Trip's combat system can be learned very quickly, even by children. The very short basic Melee book has most of the combat system in it. It is a fun arena combat game. It's GURPS equivalent is/was Man To Man, but Man To Man is more advanced and complicated than TFT's Advanced Melee was.
If I had to make just one point about TFT, though:
TFT offers a fun, logical, interesting hex mapped tactical combat system, that is very like GURPS Advanced tactical combat, BUT very fast and simplified and accessible to new players.
And, since the logical hex-mapped tactical combat is the main unique thing I think makes TFT & GURPS stand out as great games to play, I think this is the main thing to bear in mind.
We played TFT campaigns heavily from 1980-1986. We looked at D&D from a TFT perspective and thought it was a complete joke because it's so arcane and makes so little sense by comparison. Contrary to a previous comment TFT DOES have a setting (Cidri), and I would say it's actually more developed in terms of usable ready-to-play details than most GURPS world books (which isn't saying much). BUT, it does kind of expect the GM will fill in details, add geography and adventures, but unlike 1980s TFT, there are already now quite a few adventure modules for GMs who don't want to invent their own stuff, and more coming.
My RPG friends and I are into detailed tactical combat, and after 5-6 years of playing TFT, we were ready for something more detailed and realistic, and that was exactly what we found in GURPS Man To Man. I still relate to GURPS as Advanced TFT. And having mastered TFT, GURPS advanced tactical combat was very easy and natural to learn and run.
Now, as for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, well, with my background, I have a very hard time understanding how any people play it without using hex-mapped combat. To me that's like eating a hamburger without any meat or even without any meat-substitute. But comparing it to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy WITH hex-mapped tactical combat, the main differences I see are:
* Combat system complexity / detail level.
* Character complexity level.
* Magic System.
* PC Power Level
* Genre Expectations
* Deadliness Expectations
* Healing Magic
* Combat system complexity / detail level.
TFT combat is a LOT simpler and faster to learn. Once you learn GURPS combat, though, an experienced GM can run it about as easily and almost as quickly.
The overall results may be largely the same, however, and new players may not appreciate the differences.
TFT combat has engagement which results in melee fighters stopping to fight each other. GURPS combat can be much more fluid and chaotic.
TFT combat has very limited defenses. GURPS combat, especially DF combat, tends to have lots of parries, blocks and dodges.
GURPS has many more options for what to do and how to do it combat, and is blow-by-blow one-second turns instead of TFT 5-second turns.
* Character complexity level.
TFT characters are VERY easy and fast to make, and have rather less detail, much fewer options, and no Disadvantages.
GURPS characters CAN be not ALL that much more complex, but modern 4e examples and DF examples tend to be much denser and more detailed. A lot of that detail can be noise (oh really? what ARE the social disadvantages of ZOMBIES? Please list their official metabolic status. Oh are wolves Quadrupeds? Better write that down and add in the point cost!), though that can be ignored.
* Magic System.
Like the combat system, TFT's magic system is also like a simpler ancestor of GURPS Magic. However it does not suffer from many of the things some GURPS players complain about the GURPS Magic system. TFT has fewer spells, more of them are combat-oriented, and wizards know fewer of them. They do use ST-based fatigue to cast them, but you can eventually get powerstones or mana to help, or use apprentices' ST, like in GURPS Magic.
The set of useful spells and their power levels is a bit different. However many/most/all of the spells in TFT have GURPS Magic analogs.
TFT only has one spell list, and it's divided up only by IQ level prerequisite, not by type of spell or type of caster.
* PC Power Level
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy characters are often expected to start out at heroic levels, and get even more heroic with experience. TFT starting characters are just slightly better than average (32 attribute total rather than population average 30, so in GURPS 4e that's maybe +40 points above average people).
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy characters are also D&D-like heroic archetypes with access to heroic larger-than-realistic abilities, such as Heroic Archer, Ridiculous Luck, or Regeneration. TFT characters may be wizards or eventually very capable fighters, but they don't start sprouting D&D-like super-powers.
* Genre Expectations
TFT's Cidri is a fantasy setting, with fantastic creatures and magic and heroes, but it's a logical one. The guidelines for stocking labyrinths to explore mention that the GM should probably think of why the creatures and traps are where they are, how that makes sense and is possible. It also suggests the game world be mapped out on a hex map with terrain that has affects on movement rates and getting lost and so on, and describes towns, nations, and political situations that look like they make plausible sense. The professions of the world are also things that mostly makes sense.
By contrast, Dungeon Fantasy's reasons for things existing seems mainly usually to be because of D&D tropes. There are "Bards" which are super-hero-like wizards-with-musical-instruments, and who have a guild for that, because it's a D&D trope. Also "Druids", "Scouts", and other classes which have guilds of the same type, not because that makes sense, but because ... well I don't know why, but it doesn't seem to me to be logic-based.
I won't try to enumerate the differences, but what I notice is TFT seems to me fantastic but trying to make some sense, and more "its own thing" rather than trying to copy the forms of another game tradition.
* Deadliness Expectations
TFT expects there to be real likelihood of PCs dying even in ordinary encounters, and it mostly provides that with its combat system and power level suggestions.
The TFT campaign book suggests players may have multiple PCs so there can be losses and replacements, and so some can rest serious wounds or do other things while others adventure.
Dungeon Fantasy can do that too, but it has a stronger assumption players will have single PCs and GMs will conspire to try to make the universe not "too" likely to get them killed.
* Healing Magic
TFT has no magic spells that heal damage. It has healing potions that heal one point of damage, and cost $150, and may not be available. Healers heal 2 or 3 points, beyond which a wound will need 2 days' bed rest per point.
TFT characters die when their ST is reduced below 0, even by one point, unless something (see above) raises them to 0 or more within an hour.
Dungeon Fantasy includes healing spells from GURPS Magic, which are very powerful at healing people, and there are also other healing talents and potions and so on.
GURPS characters don't die until they reach ST x -1, and then they get a roll to avoid dying that heroes tend to be likely to make, etc.
i.e., It's a lot easier to die in TFT than in Dungeon Fantasy. It's also very likely that on prolonged adventures, PCs will actually have to manage and care a lot about how injured their people are, and try to get them to safety where they can rest safely, etc.
TFT does have a few healing spells. But they either only cure minor afflictions such as warts or a cough, or they are extremely taxing to cast and require a week of bed rest for the healing to take effect.
One of the biggest differences, other than what has already been noted, is all the stuff and geegaws that come with the new edition of The Fantasy Trip. The base game is really Melee and Wizard, the two fighting games. Those give you lots of counters and hex maps. If you get the Legacy Edition box, you get hex tiles to build your own maps with too, plus dry erase character cards, some with ready to go characters (unfortunately many of them have errors that weren't caught in time) and others blank. Plus you get folders and pads of character sheets and all that good stuff. And much of the stuff that's been released since has been more physical stuff, whether battlemats or more character cards or character journals or more hex tiles or what have you. The Fantasy Trip Legacy Edition is simply loaded with stuff to get you playing immediately. And it presents a pretty good method of teaching yourself and others the game (start with basic Melee battles, then add Wizard, then do the Death Test solo adventure, then add in the advanced rules and do Death Test 2, after that you're ready to play the complete rpg).
One of the biggest differences, other than what has already been noted, is all the stuff and geegaws that come with the new edition of The Fantasy Trip. The base game is really Melee and Wizard, the two fighting games. Those give you lots of counters and hex maps. If you get the Legacy Edition box, you get hex tiles to build your own maps with too, plus dry erase character cards, some with ready to go characters (unfortunately many of them have errors that weren't caught in time) and others blank. Plus you get folders and pads of character sheets and all that good stuff. And much of the stuff that's been released since has been more physical stuff, whether battlemats or more character cards or character journals or more hex tiles or what have you. The Fantasy Trip Legacy Edition is simply loaded with stuff to get you playing immediately. And it presents a pretty good method of teaching yourself and others the game (start with basic Melee battles, then add Wizard, then do the Death Test solo adventure, then add in the advanced rules and do Death Test 2, after that you're ready to play the complete rpg).