Law vs Chaos

Felix

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#41
In 1e (okay, in parts of 1e, since it is tied to the great wheel cosmology):
  • Law meant you thought society was more important than the Individual, and Chaos meant you thought individuality was more valuable than society.
  • Good meant that you favored the ideas that everyone has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Evil meant that you believed in determination, that the ends justified the means.
It's a lot more humanocentric, and I think it makes it easier to work with the evil planes and races as sympathetic characters. Your chaotic evil races can just be diehard libertarians convinced nobody should interfere with how they want to live their lives. And a Lawful Evil dark lord can be saying, "Look, I have an Intelligence score of, like, 38. I know the best way for these people to be prosperous."
 

DMH

Master of Mutant Design
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#42
Kobold Press came up with a couple monsters in their plane book* that represented another way of looking at Chaos and Law. Hundun are benign creatures of Chaos that simply exist to create. Algoriths are the entities of Law that take the raw creation of the hunduns and turns it into something recognizable, something that can be added to the mortal world. Sadly that part of their existence is buried in the text of the book and their stat blocks and descriptions do not follow that exactly.

I like the idea that Chaos and Law don't hate each other like Good and Evil do. Rather they don't understand the other and yet will work together for the greater good (lower case G).

* Dark Roads & Golden Hells. And later added them to the Tome of Beasts, so they have Pathfinder and 5e stat blocks.
 

King Snarf

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#43
Xanxost the Slaad is the fictional author of a chapter in Faces of Evil: the Fiends and also in The Inner Planes, and he comes across as a pretty entertaining and likeable guy.

Unless you're a Baatezu.
The lawful Baatezu, the hated Baatezu, the-

Ahem. Anyway, my favorite lawful neutral planar creature is the Moignos, living mathematical equations who keep calculate what's needed to keep Mechanus running but really just want to calculate pi to it's full value.
 

s/LaSH

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#46
Ahem. Anyway, my favorite lawful neutral planar creature is the Moignos, living mathematical equations who keep calculate what's needed to keep Mechanus running but really just want to calculate pi to it's full value.
Which is literally irrational, in case anybody associated Law with logic and reason. It's a job with no end, because pi has no limit.

And I think that's cool, because if I didn't I'd have some very depressing thoughts on the nature of entropy as it relates to life in deep time.
 

DarkStarling

Brilliantly Crazed
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#47
Kobold Press came up with a couple monsters in their plane book* that represented another way of looking at Chaos and Law. Hundun are benign creatures of Chaos that simply exist to create. Algoriths are the entities of Law that take the raw creation of the hunduns and turns it into something recognizable, something that can be added to the mortal world. Sadly that part of their existence is buried in the text of the book and their stat blocks and descriptions do not follow that exactly.

I like the idea that Chaos and Law don't hate each other like Good and Evil do. Rather they don't understand the other and yet will work together for the greater good (lower case G).

* Dark Roads & Golden Hells. And later added them to the Tome of Beasts, so they have Pathfinder and 5e stat blocks.
Those are cool and I like the idea that Order and Chaos can be complementary while good and evil cannot.

Chaos creates. It’s answer to ‘which’ is always ‘why not both’. Order preserves. Sometimes it preserves by eleminating contradictions. It’s how a sane consistent universe is possible. But they don’t hate each other, on a cosmic sense, more than cats fighting over what to do with a ball of yarn.
 

King Snarf

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#48
Which is literally irrational, in case anybody associated Law with logic and reason. It's a job with no end, because pi has no limit.

And I think that's cool, because if I didn't I'd have some very depressing thoughts on the nature of entropy as it relates to life in deep time.
I just like it because, like a villain in a Hostess comic, they were stopped from taking over Mechanus by the magic power of pi.
 

mindstalk

Does the math.
Validated User
#49
Law and Chaos do fit. It's just that I would rather avoid constantly having to explain why Rogues are classed with Law, Druids with Chaos, and Orcs with Law. I suppose Rangers would probably be Chaotic then?
I'd disagree, actually. Rangers may work in the wilderness, but they're agents and defenders of civilization. At least, the original Tolkien ones were, and 'real' rangers are park rangers or special forces, very civilized. So by the scheme used, I'd say Lawful, or maybe Neutral if they've "gone native" or aren't orgranized.

If your rangers are more like hunters who live in the wilderness, then yeah, Chaotic.
 

DarkStarling

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#50
There's also the question of level of analysis.

Take Robin Hood. Outlaw? Chaotic. Has very strict rules, to the point of tracking someone down to kidnap them AGAIN because Little John didn't give proper hospitality the first time? Lawful. Thief? Chaotic. Rebel against the usurper king in favor the real one? Hmm... Lawful?

Personally, I'd call him Lawful Good while acknowledging that his brand of Lawful doesn't match the Lawful of the country he's in. Chaos is amused how different flavors of Lawful clash with each other, while Chaos just does what it likes. Chaos beings who oppose Law say that the limitation of consistency is why their victory is inevitable.

Same way, I have Rogues who are in, say, the equivalent of the Mafia often be Lawful Evil. They're criminals, spreading chaos in society, but they personally have a strong code of rules.
 
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