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[Lets Read] Pathfinder Book of the Damned

Naxuul

Emo hair power!
Validated User
It's also that most of these domains don't really come across as the materialised vision of a mad warlord from the plane of chaotic evil.

I know it starts to sound a bit more Exalted than Pathfinder, but if that's the way these regions come about, I'd expect more shit like jungles of ice populated by crystal hummingbirds that drink hope.

Or maybe it's pragmatic for a Demon Lord to be closely aligned to Material Plane phenomena? Makes raising a cult easier if you're the Ape King of the Jungle than if you're M'krylth the Walker on Obsidian Serendipity.
Different expectations. The Abyss, and demons in general, are heavily sword and sorcery flavored with a strong trend towards the natural world taken to predatory extremes. More artsy conceptual ideas aren't really part of it's paradigm.

-Naxuul
 

Silvercat Moonpaw

Quadruped Transhuman
Validated User
What exactly do qipploth come from? They feel a bit superfluous in a setting that has Lovecraft coming out the wazoo.
 

Proteus

Yours Pedantically
Validated User
Well remember that in Pathfinder Demons are born from human sin. Most of them were human at some point, so while their realms are evil, they're a form of evil comprehensible to the human mind.
That's the concept, but it doesn't come off that well in the execution. Admittedly, they've made sure to associate all the demon lords (and other demons) with sins, which is good. But the trappings always seem more distinctive and relevant than the sin. Jubilex is oozes, Pazuzu is birds, this guy whose name I can't spell is Apes. I can't even remember what sins they're associated with.

Compare to Mammon, who is an archdevil, but is all over the sin of greed, and not particular associated with any creatures or terrains beyond that.

Compare that to the Qlippoth, the original inhabitants of the Abyss, who are utterly inhuman, and have realms that mirror that.
I wasn't trying to pitch "alien and inhuman incomprehensibility" so much as "the output of a deranged and chaotic but fundamentally human mind". These people spend centuries in the Abyss growing in power, and when they eventually ascend to the status of Demon Lord and can shape the world around them, their craziest idea is "like a jungle on the Material Plane, but worse"?
 

Proteus

Yours Pedantically
Validated User
Different expectations. The Abyss, and demons in general, are heavily sword and sorcery flavored with a strong trend towards the natural world taken to predatory extremes. More artsy conceptual ideas aren't really part of it's paradigm.

-Naxuul
Yup, that makes perfect sense from a Doylist perspective. And is also absolutely a good thing for the game (it's much easier to fit the plans of Scorpion Queen into a game set in Golarion than it is to work out the machinations of the Marchioness of Shifting Fangs).

I'm deep in the Watsonian here, thinking about whether the souls of human sinners dwelling in the infinite plane of chaotic evil, who eventually gain enough power to shape the world around them to their whim, would end up becoming the kind of Demon Lords we see here. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise, if anyone has an interest in doing so, but at the moment I am not seeing it.
 

Silvercat Moonpaw

Quadruped Transhuman
Validated User
Maybe only souls who hold on to their mortal minds have the discipline to become Lords. Everyone else just eventually slacks off or gets any motivation ground down by the chaos.

Or maybe it’s a qupploth defense technique: the more mortal you region, the......something. I lost it.

Or maybe Demon Lords who go too crazy with the redecorating turn in to qipploth.
 

Crinos

Next to me you're all number two!
Validated User
Well, personally, I really love the abyssal realms. They all sound like really fun places to adventure in.

I kind of want to do a search for Grog type adventure where someone draws the void from the deck of many things, and their soul ends up in one of these awful places.
 

Crinos

Next to me you're all number two!
Validated User
Maybe only souls who hold on to their mortal minds have the discipline to become Lords. Everyone else just eventually slacks off or gets any motivation ground down by the chaos.

Or maybe it’s a qupploth defense technique: the more mortal you region, the......something. I lost it.

Or maybe Demon Lords who go too crazy with the redecorating turn in to qipploth.
Well, the demons of Sloth are canonically Dretches.

Basically if you're evil, but you're too much of a lazy shit to get anything done, you become a Dretch in the Abyss.

Also, I don't think any demon lord has become a Qlippoth, but a few Qlippoth have become Demon Lords. But more on them later.
 

Leliel

SJ Road Warrior
Validated User
Seems odd to me that the chaotic Abyss is the place that neatly divides up creatures and terrains and gives everything a boss.

Here's the jungle place, only jungle things live here, they are ruled by the Demon Lord of Jungles.

Deserts, scorpions, gnolls, oozes. You name it, there's a Demon Lord claiming categorical dominion over it.

Sounds pretty Lawful Evil to me. "Sorry, scorpions aren't my department, I'm non-desert arachnids only, you'll have to take it up with Layer 762b..."
And now you know why proteans (the CN outsiders, Pathfinder's version of slaadi, just with snakes instead of frogs) actually hate demons more than they do the Lawful planes.

That's entirely canon, Concordance of Rivals explicitly states that proteans will harass demons and qlippoths before inevitables and axiomites, if they have to chose. The LN outsiders are just natural enemies of chaos, the Abyss is actually offensive to them. And before you ask, no, it's not because it's Chaos tainted with morality; they actually throw a lot of parties with CG azatas, it's just the Abyss they loathe.
 

Crinos

Next to me you're all number two!
Validated User
And now you know why proteans (the CN outsiders, Pathfinder's version of slaadi, just with snakes instead of frogs) actually hate demons more than they do the Lawful planes.

That's entirely canon, Concordance of Rivals explicitly states that proteans will harass demons and qlippoths before inevitables and axiomites, if they have to chose. The LN outsiders are just natural enemies of chaos, the Abyss is actually offensive to them. And before you ask, no, it's not because it's Chaos tainted with morality; they actually throw a lot of parties with CG azatas, it's just the Abyss they loathe.
Yeah, IIRC isn't the abyss the result of Daemons trying to taint the Maelstrom or something?

Even if not, there is a major beef between Daemons and Proteans (As we will see in the next entry) though to be fair Daemons have a beef with literally everyone.

They're sort of the successors to 3.5's obyrith demons, though that just moves the question back a step.
The Qlippoth also originate from that Green Ronin book "Armies if the Abyss." And in fact several of the basic Qlippoth types come from that book. In particular the Shoggti, the Nyogoth, the Hydraggon, and the Qlippoth Lord Shiggareb.

Again worth noting that Erik Mona wrote armies of the abyss. So he's always been heavily involved in padding out Pathfinder's Hells.
 
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