[MLP FiM] Thread 20 - ellivynoP draobrekcehC gnitaolF s'drocsiD

Stryke

Bang and a Boom
Validated User
And I would argue that Dragon Quest is a great exploration of Spike's character, specifically in terms of his search for an identity, and for teaching kids an important lesson about how "Family are the people who love you, not necessarily the people you share DNA with."
Oh I agree it had potential. It's the execution that is alas sorely lacking. I still think it would have worked better with young adult female dragons to sell the parallels better to Spike's usual situations, see also have Rarity not doing an embarrassingly awkward put up your dukes pose which wrecked her wonderful threat.

I don't think Over a Barrel was easily salvageable but Dragon Quest with a rewrite could have been really good. See also Testing Testing 123.
 

schpeelah

Retired User
I was thinking about this a lot since I was introduced to the concept a while ago on another forum. I call discontinuity not so much on account of dislike (although the top 2 worst episodes are on the list), especially merely bad execution, but because of not wanting things in the continuity. Thus, Dragon Quest is not on the list.

Full episode discontinuity
1) Twilight never murdered a bunch of Pinkie Pies.
a) On a more minor note, Pinkie can still move arbitrarily fast off-screen / be in multiple places at once. (Remember how she also works at the fast food place? The headcanon is that she works in every food place in Ponyville simultaneously).
2) Ponyville does not stand on a bunch of crazy steep hills and there was no sudden epidemic of life-threatening accidents of ridiculous proportions for a town this size. By extension, no Mare Do Well. (Yes, the girls were cunts in this episode, but shit happens, that's not my reason.)
3) I can't even articulate all the stupid nonsensical things that happened in that episode, so I just straight say Rainbow Falls didn't happen. Instead, Wonderbolts Academy took place at some point after Princess Twilight Sparkle and that badge is Rainbow's key.
4) Y'know what, I just rewatched Feeling Pinkie Keen. Fuck all of that episode. It didn't happen, and Pinkie Sense is just Pinkie having a really good awareness of moving objects in vicinity, with some accompanying tingling/twitching.

Partial discontinuity
1) Pinkie and Rainbow did not first become friends a day before Gilda visited when Pinkie bullied Dash into helping her prank Spike.
2) The fight between the buffalo and the Appleoosans was not a food fight. There was a pie thrown at the end because the Sheriff did not have anything else on hoof at the moment.
3) Spike did not suddenly become super incompetent at housework when he did the whole thing with Dragon Code and Applejack. (I should probably expand on this at some point.)
4) Discord's power was heavily restricted when they let him out of stone. He did retain enough to be a nuisance, and his allowance has since been raising for good behavior.

I am probably forgetting about something about some episode or other.
 
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LoneWolf23

Registered User
Validated User
1) Twilight never murdered a bunch of Pinkie Pies.
You're right. She didn't. She basically dematerialized and banished a bunch of artificial replicas of Pinkie Pie. They weren't people, they were essentially artificial constructs with a simulacrum of personality mimicking Pinkie Pie on only the most shallow level. They couldn't even pass a basic turing test.
 

Bremen

Member
RPGnet Member
Validated User
In the interests of not restarting any old debates, I think I'll just say I feel the opposite way about most of the stuff on Schpeelah's list and leave it at that.
 

Bag of Magic Food

Still captured by Lothor
Validated User
Yeah, for a kids comedy cartoon, I find it's pretty easy to rationalize how things could have really happened rather than striking events entirely. Not sure about the comic books though.
 

sun_tzu

Registered User
Validated User
Yeah, for a kids comedy cartoon, I find it's pretty easy to rationalize how things could have really happened rather than striking events entirely. Not sure about the comic books though.
Heck, that's a good portion of what I do with my Where-I-Watch.
 

Barghest

Retired from being Used
Validated User
You're right. She didn't. She basically dematerialized and banished a bunch of artificial replicas of Pinkie Pie. They weren't people, they were essentially artificial constructs with a simulacrum of personality mimicking Pinkie Pie on only the most shallow level. They couldn't even pass a basic turing test.
Yeah. I'm always a little mystified when I run into people who don't get this--especially on a website that's ostensibly intended to discuss roleplaying games. I could totally understand if an eight-year-old girl misunderstood what was going on and thought Twilight had killed a bunch of Pinkie Pies*, but seriously--anyone who has decades of gaming under their belt, who has battled simulacrums and golems and undead in D&D and Power Ring constructs in superhero games and materialized spirits in Werewolf: The Apocalypse and who knows what else, should really have some grasp of the concept of P-zombies.



*which may have actually been a thing when it first aired, since they are the target audience, after all.
 

RK_Striker_JK_5

Registered User
Validated User
Yeah. I'm always a little mystified when I run into people who don't get this--especially on a website that's ostensibly intended to discuss roleplaying games. I could totally understand if an eight-year-old girl misunderstood what was going on and thought Twilight had killed a bunch of Pinkie Pies*, but seriously--anyone who has decades of gaming under their belt, who has battled simulacrums and golems and undead in D&D and Power Ring constructs in superhero games and materialized spirits in Werewolf: The Apocalypse and who knows what else, should really have some grasp of the concept of P-zombies.
Never done anything like that. And for the record, I'm convinced she destroyed/killed a bunch of sapient beings. And for the sake of this thread, let me make this clear. There is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.
 

schpeelah

Retired User
You're right. She didn't. She basically dematerialized and banished a bunch of artificial replicas of Pinkie Pie. They weren't people, they were essentially artificial constructs with a simulacrum of personality mimicking Pinkie Pie on only the most shallow level. They couldn't even pass a basic turing test.
You know who can't pass a Turing test? 4-year-olds. Turing's test is a flawed thing from half a century ago way before anything resembling AI emerged. It is easy to imagine nonhuman intelligences that would not pass - primarily because of being from planet Zog. Turing assumed the set of beings that could pass for human in a conversation is a strict subset of sapient beings - that assumption has since been challenged now that several chatbots have in fact passed the Turing Test - real humans actually losing to a modified Cleverbot

Yes, the clones weren't full copies of Pinkie. You seem to be under the impression that makes it better, when in reality it makes it worse. If they were complete copies, you could at least go for the Franken Fran interpretation that there is only one person there, Pinkie, and as long as a Pinkie lives no one has died because multiple instances of one person are that person in multiple places at once, not a crowd of similar people. However, that was not the case - they did not know the things she did know, had ideas she did not have and reacted to situations differently from her. The first clone demonstrates her own reasoning and even as they are being killed they show their own creativity and original ideas - "you can't make your face crazier than this" is not something Pinkie ever said or done. They are their own beings, with the minds of little children similar to Pinkie Pie. And they died because Twilight found them to disruptive to deal with and they did not learn about the concept of death and didn't realize the seriousness of the situation they were in.



Good going with the cowardly dehumanizing language that means the same thing. They might have been made from magic water and fairy dust or whatever, so killing them was "dematerializing replicas" in the same way burning a human alive is "oxidizing organic compounds".
In the interests of not restarting any old debates, I think I'll just say I feel the opposite way about most of the stuff on Schpeelah's list and leave it at that.
Really? I thought most of the list was pretty much consensus. Other than riffing on the episodes, I haven't seen anyone use Rainbow Fall to argue that Fluttershy volunteers for sports teams or that Wonderbolt Cadet Bulky Biceps barely flies, no one in the fandom ever acknowledged Rainbow actively disliking Pinkie before Griffon the Brush-Off etc. etc.

Yeah. I'm always a little mystified when I run into people who don't get this--especially on a website that's ostensibly intended to discuss roleplaying games. I could totally understand if an eight-year-old girl misunderstood what was going on and thought Twilight had killed a bunch of Pinkie Pies*, but seriously--anyone who has decades of gaming under their belt, who has battled simulacrums and golems and undead in D&D and Power Ring constructs in superhero games and materialized spirits in Werewolf: The Apocalypse and who knows what else, should really have some grasp of the concept of P-zombies.


*which may have actually been a thing when it first aired, since they are the target audience, after all.
So I take it you think killing intelligent constructs, undead and simulacra is not murder when killing humans in the same circumstances would be?

The concept of P-zombies is that people do not understand how consciousness is a product of natural processes and so can imagine a full person complete in every detail that somehow does not count as a person for no reason.

Never done anything like that. And for the record, I'm convinced she destroyed/killed a bunch of sapient beings. And for the sake of this thread, let me make this clear. There is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.
I can be flexible in reinterpreting things to dodge implications (the mariachi players from Inspiration Manifestation come to mind, and Cadance's love magic), but in this case there is just no other possible interpretation without adopting monstrous stances on the criteria for personhood, or headcanoning elaborate behind the scenes goings-on expansive enough to count as a sun_tzu-style rewrite anyway.
 
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