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"No one can be told what the Matrix is" - "complicated" media that isn't

Senex

Gunboat Diplomat
Validated User
I do wonder how much any given media gets a reputation for being complicated is down to different people's ability to parse media. My partner is far from stupid, but I have to constantly explain what's going on in films and TV, to the point where I'm at a loss to put things in simpler terms than they already are. My mum's partner, too: he needs everything spelled out in a very blunt, expositional fashion, or he just won't grasp what's going on. Again, not a stupid guy, by any stretch.
 

DarkMum

Godamn Catwoman
Validated User
remeber that Leia didn't start out with Force powers and didn;t show even a hint of them until near the end of the second movie.
The lack of bras in space as alleged by George Lucas to a young Carrie Fisher suggest that suspension of disbelief is an application of telekinetic Jedi Force powers already used by Leia in the first movie.
 

Uncle Claudius

Villain, villain, smiling damned villain.
Validated User
Yeah...the whole thing about DMC and AWE is that they're intended to be that game with the ball and three cups. The rules are easy. It's following the ball that's tricky, and that's intentional. Some critics hate that. They like movies where they can focus on character motivations and acting and dialog and don't have to think about the fact that the MacGuffin has wandered all over the place at this point and now the pirates kicked over the table with the cups and there's a giant maelstrom. And I get it. I can understand that attitude. But ironically, that is the point where a critic has to admit something is not made for them, personally. Yes, that sounds stupid at first until you realize sometimes that argument actually fits. Ebert was sometimes able to make that distinction, but just as often went into cranky old man-mode. He wasn't and isn't alone in that.
The Pirates sequels aren't complicated through fiendish design, they're complicated because the director and designers began creating the action sequences before the script was finished. The screenwriters would be halfway through a draft and then told that they had to abandon their plotting because Gore Verbinski wanted a three-way sword fight on a water wheel rolling through the jungle. The characters aren't in the jungle? Rewrite it.

Sometimes the critics don't let a film be what it wants to be. Sometimes the critics blast a film because it lacks basic narrative competence, and they are right to do so.
 

Rachel Cartacos

Social Justice Dragon
Validated User
I mean... I guess It Depends.

I never had too much of an issue (har har) getting into a comics continuity back in the 90s... until the comics I was reading got stuck into some Clone Saga business. At which point I was more or less stuck and dropped out of the whole thing for a while.

I honestly haven't been too much into superhero comics for more than a decade, and a lot of the times I've tried it's been less 'you can pick up who these people are and what their deal is on the fly' and more 'you can pick up the last three trades of Unrelated Title-Team and possibly one or two of the individual characters' stand-alone titles at your local retailer to figure out who these people are and why you should care!' Say what you will about Psylocke explaining the focused totality of etc every damn issue at least a new reader could figure out what she was on about...

And I dunno, I know a good few people who are into the MCU but bounce off the sequential art continuities.
Okay but in fairness, people who followed the Clone saga from the very start still bounced off of that continuity nightmare :D
 

Tambourine

Spirit Princess
Validated User
*Glares in General Leia...*

Anyone wishing to argue that Star Wars is not simply a western fairy tale with a plot borrowed from a classic eastern*, then set in outer space can form an orderly line outside Chalmun's cantina.

I'd also cite Empire magazine's article on the similarities between Star Wars and LotR, long before the current era of Jackson's action adventure stories if I really wanted to start an inter-franchise argument.

In short, Neo, Solo, Frodo or Let It Go, a road trip story is one of those roads that never ends, folks. :geek:



*Kurosawa’s 1958 classic period drama, The Hidden Fortress.
Leia did not actually have magical powers until TLJ (in large part because she hadn't been written to be Luke's sister until ROTJ). At that point her status as an actual fairy tale princess can at least be called into question - it seems a lot more significant in TLJ that she's the sister of the wizard (Luke) rather than that she's a princess. I would also question that the Disney sequels follow a fairy tale formula - I personally don't believe that simply following Campbell's monomyth is enough to make a story a fairy tale.

That said, my comment wasn't really directed at Star Wars to begin with. The post I was responding to compared Frozen and the X-Men.
 
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DarkMum

Godamn Catwoman
Validated User
Leia did not actually have magical powers until TLJ (in large part because she hadn't been written to be Luke's sister until ROTJ). At that point her status as an actual fairy tale princess can at least be called into question - it seems a lot more significant in TLJ that she's the sister of the wizard (Luke) rather than that she's a princess. I would also question that the Disney sequels follow a fairy tale formula - I personally don't believe that simply following Campbell's monomyth is enough to make a story a fairy tale.
So resisting drug assisted interrogation from a Sith of Vader's known abilities in the first movie isn't Leia's Force Powers at work either?
Best the guy gets out of her is she's looking for two droids, probably on some goddamned backwater armpit of a planet, and he's not even sure which of the two droids has the plans. I doubt yelling "You're not my real dad!" at him would have worked in any case.

And Luke's the Wizard's Apprentice, not the Wizard at that point too.

Look, if you have a better definition of a fairy tale than a fictional story aimed mostly at children (Or the young at heart) with the fantastic elements being vitally important to the plot, and a hefty serve of GvsE morality as well? I'd be happy to hear it.

...That said, my comment wasn't really directed at Star Wars to begin with. The post I was responding to compared Frozen and the X-Men.
Fair enough then, in your case I'll let it go.
 

SunlessNick

Mildly Darkened One
Validated User
I definitely remember at the time reading film critics who held that the film was too complicated
I remember them saying the same thing about Batman Begins (specifically unable to wrap their heads around the idea that Joe Chill and William Earl didn't work for Ra's al-Ghul, but could be antagonists anyway).
So resisting drug assisted interrogation from a Sith of Vader's known abilities in the first movie isn't Leia's Force Powers at work either?
At the time it was written, it was just that Leia was that tough.
 

Old Toby

Least Known Dog on the Net
Validated User
So resisting drug assisted interrogation from a Sith of Vader's known abilities in the first movie isn't Leia's Force Powers at work either?
Best the guy gets out of her is she's looking for two droids, probably on some goddamned backwater armpit of a planet, and he's not even sure which of the two droids has the plans. I doubt yelling "You're not my real dad!" at him would have worked in any case.
Curiously, in the Radio Drama, he attempts to hypnotize her into thinking he's her father*...

Old Toby
Least Known Dog on the Net

*That is, into believing she's talking to Bail Organa, not into believing "my father is Darth Vader"
 

DarkMum

Godamn Catwoman
Validated User
At the time it was written, it was just that Leia was that tough.
For the era the film was made admittedly, that much was at least another step forward towards the whole Princesses Rescuing Themselves trope in modern media.

Curiously, in the Radio Drama, he attempts to hypnotize her into thinking he's her father*...

Old Toby
Least Known Dog on the Net

*That is, into believing she's talking to Bail Organa, not into believing "my father is Darth Vader"
Firstly: I'd forgotten that, but it's been a while since I head the radio play version in my youth.
Secondly: That's a really icky kind of irony there...
Thirdly: so she's a 'Feisty Princess With Daddy Issues' type from fairly early on then?
 
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