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[Numenera, Strange, Cypher] Dumping the d20.

Von Ether

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I heard that No Thank you, Evil, was basically the Cypher system with a d6 instead of a d20. I also heard that real reason one has to multiply by three is so that a d20 can be used for resolution. More important than the die itself, is the fact that it produces a flat result as compared to a bell curse like one would do with 2d20 or 3d6.

I have no beef with our friend, the d20, and I don't mind the minor multiplying, but I have players who loathe math. A trend that seems to come up with story-based games.

So to drop the multiplication -- or even simply it. My thoughts were either to change the range of Difficulties or or the die itself.

The d10 that seems the natural choice, but one of Cooke's comments is that the d20 provides enough room for the damage/effects at 17,18,19, 20 and dramatic swing.

So with all of that in mind, my take (beyond a d10) would be to used a d12 and just expand the Difficulty from 1 to 12 with a 1 still for GM Intrusions and still debating if 10, 11, and 12 will provide damage/effects or just use 11 and 12 for that.

While that may not be as intuitive as using a 1-10 range, I'll be thinking about it in percentages.

1100%
291.67
383.33
475.00
566.67
658.33
750.00
841.67
933.33
1025.00
1116.67
128.33

Or to round it out for even quicker GMing on the fly.

1100%
292
383
475
570
667
750
842
933
1025
1117
128
 

Chris Tavares

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That would work, although it cuts out the "impossible" difficulty 7, 8, 9, and 10 - you'll want to include levels higher than 12. Perhaps go to 15 on the difficultly scale? Without that you reduce the chance that players will spend effort to succeed, which is a major part of the gameplay IMHO. You'll also need to rescale all the monsters, traps, NPCs - basically everything in the game. If you're doing it for a homebrew, no big deal, but there are a lot of monsters and characters available in Numenera, and they all have that one number. :)

If the goal is to simply avoid the multiplication, another option would be to pick up one of these special dice. They're labelled with the difficulty level you hit, effectively building the multiplication into the die itself. Not an MCG product, but I picked up some when the original kickstarter happened. I had a newbie RPGer in my group that loved them, made it really easy for him to play.
 

Dracones

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My vote would be on d6 or d8. On a 1 you could just re-roll to see if you get an intrusion if the die comes up a 1-2, or 1-3 or whatever. On a max roll you can just have it be a single type of "does better" rather than the minor/major thing. Or you can roll again to see if you get a small damage mod, minor or major.

Personally I think the 17, 18, etc is a bit fiddly and you don't really need that level of detail. But it's easy enough to re-produce with re-rolling 6's or 8's on d6's and d8's.

I don't like the d10 because really I want a smaller range of "you need to roll" target numbers. Low level chars are dealing with 1-6 while high level ones are in the 4-10 range. So as a DM I'm not picking 1-10, so much as 1-5 or 1-6.
 

Von Ether

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My vote would be on d6 or d8. On a 1 you could just re-roll to see if you get an intrusion if the die comes up a 1-2, or 1-3 or whatever. On a max roll you can just have it be a single type of "does better" rather than the minor/major thing. Or you can roll again to see if you get a small damage mod, minor or major.

Personally I think the 17, 18, etc is a bit fiddly and you don't really need that level of detail. But it's easy enough to re-produce with re-rolling 6's or 8's on d6's and d8's.

I don't like the d10 because really I want a smaller range of "you need to roll" target numbers. Low level chars are dealing with 1-6 while high level ones are in the 4-10 range. So as a DM I'm not picking 1-10, so much as 1-5 or 1-6.
Thinking of rerolling for Effects, I'd almost rather have a separate, colored d6 that always gets rolled with the main d6, like in the d6 System, Savage World and Fantasy Age. Roll a 1 or 6 with the main die, check the color die for confirmation.

Ballparking, I'm guessing that the odds of 1+1-2 or 6+5-6 will give a generous 8% chance of Effects and Intrusions. Better yet, I think I can get some dice that give some odds like that with symbols instead. It also gives me an option to use the "hero dice" for other GMing shenanigans.

Going back to the die of choice.

Funny enough as I put my head down for the night, another perspective hit me.

Without modification, the d20 alone maxes out around Level 6 [18 Difficulty] (and now Damage/Effects make more sense since a result of 19 and 20 would be sort of lackluster without them)

That also leaves about 40% of the remaining Levels out of reach unless you use your Skills, Assets and Effort.

On that note, that makes a d12 more applicable to a Level X2, system with the unmodified roll capping out at Level 6 as well.

And coming around the long way, it makes a d6 the natural choice for what seems to be fidelity.

But going back to No Thank You, Evil, the difficulty range is 0-8 and uses a d6. Which makes me think that if I wanted an even more cinematic game, I could bump up the die to a d8.
 
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Atlictoatl

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How in the world is anything discussed so far in this thread simpler than assigning 1-10 Difficulty, increasing or lowering that in increments of 1, and multiplying the final result by 3 to arrive at a number that has to be equaled or exceeded on 1d20?
 

BrianBloodaxe

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Yep, not multiplying and rolling a d6 is near enough identical except for the fact that you can't fail a level 1 challenge and you only have one type of special effect on a 6. These two facts might not be an issue though and if they are a second roll will sorry them out easily enough.
 

Chris Henry

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Yep, not multiplying and rolling a d6 is near enough identical except for the fact that you can't fail a level 1 challenge and you only have one type of special effect on a 6. These two facts might not be an issue though and if they are a second roll will sorry them out easily enough.
Except Von Ether said that NTYE (the only Cypher System title to officially use a d6 in place of a d20) uses a difficulty range of 0-8, implying that 1 still has some relevancy. It also implies he's a playtester and probably can't say more... unless he just played in a demo and wasn't under an NDA. Spill if you're allowed Von Ether. :D
 

the_green_man

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I'd never heard of No Thank You, Evil before, but I did toy with a Cypher d6 system once. I've never tried it out. The percentages won't be exactly the same, of course, but may be close enough for gaming.

The 1-10 difficulty scale stays the same, but the player rolls directly against the difficulty level. In Cypher, an unmodified roll will never achieve a difficulty of 7 (21) and neither will a d6. In Cd6, a difficulty of 1 will automatically succeed, but the player must still roll to see if there's a GM intrusion. The chance of an intrusion is much higher—17% vs. 5%. Maybe that makes up for the somewhat more generous chances of success, or maybe a second roll could moderate it. E.g., a 1 is a possible intrusion and a second roll of 1-2 makes it an actual intrusion (1/6 × 1/3 = 5.556%).

difficultyCypherCypher d6
190%100%
275%83%
360%67%
445%50%
530%33%
615%17%
7~~
8~~
9~~
10~~
~
 
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Von Ether

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I'd have a "Cypher die" with 3 colors for 1/2, 1/3, and 1/6.

After the main die rolls a 1or 6, the "cypher die" colors wwould be for standard success/failure, bonus success/GM Intrusion/max success/fail. Or something like that.
 
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