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[Overwatch Thread the 5th] Have you seen some of the things Talon wears?

taleswapper

Social Justice Lazy Warlord
Validated User
RL/RQ will group you with strangers, and every disappointing experience you had in LFG will be repeated and, this time, unavoidable. Like I said last time, you don't want new tools to improve the game, you want a community from which you can pick decent players. No matchmaker is going to give you the set of players you are hoping for; you have to go out and find them yourself.
Ah, but it won't. I'll be in game with strangers but I won't be grouped with strangers (I was using the term "group" there as it is used in game, not as a generic term). Between games I won't have a group of strangers waiting with me to queue who will be in my coms. I really don't mind playing with strangers. I simply don't like being grouped with strangers. There actually are quite a few differences between those two scenarios. I can enumerate them further if necessary. You are, of course, wrong about what I want. I do, in fact, want tools to improve the game.

There is a reason streamers and players and content creators who have left the game are coming back in anticipation of role queue/role lock.


ETA: Honestly, best case scenario for me personally would be to be in group with folks on my friend's list (so I'm chatting amiably with them while queueing), but matched for games with strangers (so I can be placed in appropriate matches). In a world with an improved matchmaker enabled by role lock/role queue that would be even better. And lest you think I'm simply pulling this out of nowhere, I've actually done something like this before- set up a Playstation chat party to be chatting amiably with my friends while I'm playing Overwatch and they're playing Apex Legends. You can prioritize party audio or game audio and shift back and forth as necessary.
 
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Dragon_Blooded

Social Justice Main Tank
Validated User
Ah, but it won't. I'll be in game with strangers but I won't be grouped with strangers (I was using the term "group" there as it is used in game, not as a generic term). Between games I won't have a group of strangers waiting with me to queue who will be in my coms. I really don't mind playing with strangers. I simply don't like being grouped with strangers. There actually are quite a few differences between those two scenarios. I can enumerate them further if necessary. You are, of course, wrong about what I want. I do, in fact, want tools to improve the game.

There is a reason streamers and players and content creators who have left the game are coming back in anticipation of role queue/role lock.


ETA: Honestly, best case scenario for me personally would be to be in group with folks on my friend's list (so I'm chatting amiably with them while queueing), but matched for games with strangers (so I can be placed in appropriate matches). In a world with an improved matchmaker enabled by role lock/role queue that would be even better. And lest you think I'm simply pulling this out of nowhere, I've actually done something like this before- set up a Playstation chat party to be chatting amiably with my friends while I'm playing Overwatch and they're playing Apex Legends. You can prioritize party audio or game audio and shift back and forth as necessary.
I'm almost exactly in the same boat: I group up with friends and have voice chat on with them, and not the rest of my team (because I only play QP, if I played Comp I should use voice chest to talk to the whole team). I don't use group finder to form a 2/2/2 group with strangers to play QP due to the implicit assumption that we would be using voice chat, and I can't be arsed to talk to strangers in a low stakes environment like QP. So forced 2/2/2 will make my games much better (and since I play mostly tanks and healers I won't spend much time queuing, which is nice).

Also, I'm very interested in how they will rebalance heroes once 2/2/2 becomes a thing. Because ever since GOATS started to dominate the pro meta most of the balance changes were done to try to kill that, with some heroes being too weak in forced 2/2/2 due to multiple nerfs (Brig would be the biggest example here), while others seem grossly OP (Orisa and Sombra, frex).

Eduardo Penna
 

taleswapper

Social Justice Lazy Warlord
Validated User
I'm almost exactly in the same boat: I group up with friends and have voice chat on with them, and not the rest of my team (because I only play QP, if I played Comp I should use voice chest to talk to the whole team). I don't use group finder to form a 2/2/2 group with strangers to play QP due to the implicit assumption that we would be using voice chat, and I can't be arsed to talk to strangers in a low stakes environment like QP. So forced 2/2/2 will make my games much better (and since I play mostly tanks and healers I won't spend much time queuing, which is nice).

Also, I'm very interested in how they will rebalance heroes once 2/2/2 becomes a thing. Because ever since GOATS started to dominate the pro meta most of the balance changes were done to try to kill that, with some heroes being too weak in forced 2/2/2 due to multiple nerfs (Brig would be the biggest example here), while others seem grossly OP (Orisa and Sombra, frex).

Eduardo Penna
I don't even mind voice chat in game (I actually have a great deal of success shot/play calling in a solo queue environment). I just don't have any desire to small talk with random strangers between matches. It really is just the fact that it auto-groups that bugs me. It's the same issue I had with the "stay as team" feature. If it didn't default to setting up a group, precisely as though I were grouping with friends, I think it would have worked much better. What I want is balanced matches with decent comps and players who want to play the role they are playing. None of that means I want to group with random strangers. And the role lock/role queue system will finally work to address the issue without assuming I want to group with random strangers.

As for the rebalancing, I agree that'll be interesting to see. As far back as January or so, Jeff acknowledged that they'd have to rebalance heroes in a 2/2/2 environment, so they've been thinking about this for at least half a year (probably more like a year, given some of Jeff's statements last year). Orisa should be fine if they can rebalance the other tanks since they will no longer have to contend with a triple/quad tank environment. Most of the last several balance patches have been nerfs to tanks and buffs to DPS. The armor nerfs, in particular, in an environment with buffed DPS hit Rein and Winston hard. They'll have to address that somehow.
 

Korhal_IV

Active member
Validated User
Ah, but it won't. I'll be in game with strangers but I won't be grouped with strangers (I was using the term "group" there as it is used in game, not as a generic term). Between games I won't have a group of strangers waiting with me to queue who will be in my coms. I really don't mind playing with strangers. I simply don't like being grouped with strangers.
You need to break in-game character select so you can enjoy out-of-game chatter? Alright then. That sure doesn't sound like you want improved social functions at all.

Last time we had this discussion, in May, I argued that Sombra/Doom comps in Contenders would show us the way out of a GOATs meta. Lately we've been seeing Sombra/Ana comps kicking GOATs to the curb, including SFShock's unbeatable 3-3 getting smashed to flinders. Doom isn't a mainstay yet, but 1-4-1 DPS-heavy comps do keep showing up. The meta shake-up didn't come about solely due to Blizzard nerfs (although the recent D.Va nerf did help), but because teams stuck at 0-7 were forced to try new Contenders lineups. Cash breeds conservatism; when you have millions in your team sponsors' money riding on League matches, you're going to play what you think the best comp is, and only when that fails are you going to try something new. And now the something new is riding high.
 

taleswapper

Social Justice Lazy Warlord
Validated User
You need to break in-game character select so you can enjoy out-of-game chatter? Alright then. That sure doesn't sound like you want improved social functions at all.
What are you even trying to argue here? And why is it so important for you to convince me that I do not want what I want, or whatever it is that you are doing? I honestly don't understand what your goal is. I never said I wanted improved social functions. What I said was that I wanted improved game systems in order to facilitate better matches.

How does that have anything to do with who I chat with in between matches?

Last time we had this discussion, in May, I argued that Sombra/Doom comps in Contenders would show us the way out of a GOATs meta. Lately we've been seeing Sombra/Ana comps kicking GOATs to the curb, including SFShock's unbeatable 3-3 getting smashed to flinders. Doom isn't a mainstay yet, but 1-4-1 DPS-heavy comps do keep showing up. The meta shake-up didn't come about solely due to Blizzard nerfs (although the recent D.Va nerf did help), but because teams stuck at 0-7 were forced to try new Contenders lineups. Cash breeds conservatism; when you have millions in your team sponsors' money riding on League matches, you're going to play what you think the best comp is, and only when that fails are you going to try something new. And now the something new is riding high.
Sombra GOATS is the current mainstay. Zen is sometimes swapped out for Ana in GOATS comps. Bunker is still being run in certain circumstances. The biggest shift is that Sombra is ubiquitous. Other than that, teams are running more multi-DPS comps. And I would argue that you can actually see teams giving their DPS players reps on DPS heroes. They don't always leave them on those heroes, however, and the better teams will often swap out their Widow/Hanzo for Zarya/Brig, for example. So we're still in a GOATS meta. It's just that Sombra GOATS is the meta comp.

I imagine the reason teams are giving their DPS players reps on DPS heroes is twofold: the first is player morale, the second is that the teams know that 2/2/2 is coming. In a couple of weeks, no one will be running GOATS. So you want to start fielding folks like Saebyeolbe (who got zero play time in stages 1 and 2 of this season) now, and you want people to start dusting off their Widows and such. All in preparation for stage 4 and the season finals. That way, these teams (who, again, know that this shift is coming) aren't caught flat-footed.
 
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CarpeGuitarrem

Blogger and gamer
Validated User
Yeah, I imagine the complaint here about LFG is that it creates a de facto social group, which isn't necessarily what you're interested in if all you want is a group that's committing to a balanced comp.
 

taleswapper

Social Justice Lazy Warlord
Validated User
Yeah, I imagine the complaint here about LFG is that it creates a de facto social group, which isn't necessarily what you're interested in if all you want is a group that's committing to a balanced comp.
Precisely. Just because I'd prefer balanced matches does not mean I want to be in a social group with random strangers between matches. And to be fair, I have had random social groups that were fine and on at least one occasion enjoyable when using LFG and 'stay as team.' Far more often, however, I would vastly prefer not to have to group with the people between matches even if it turns out that we end up with a good mix of players in a game.

Knowing that the matchmaker will actually be setting up teams with 2 people who have chosen to queue as tanks, 2 people who have chosen to queue as healers, and 2 players who have chosen to queue as DPS will be huge. And we'll have that every match. And we won't have to group with random strangers if we don't want to in order to have that baseline decent matchmaking. That's a huge win even before you get into all of the knock on effects of more people learning more roles and how the team play of Overwatch actually works etc.
 

Dragon_Blooded

Social Justice Main Tank
Validated User
Knowing that the matchmaker will actually be setting up teams with 2 people who have chosen to queue as tanks, 2 people who have chosen to queue as healers, and 2 players who have chosen to queue as DPS will be huge. And we'll have that every match. And we won't have to group with random strangers if we don't want to in order to have that baseline decent matchmaking. That's a huge win even before you get into all of the knock on effects of more people learning more roles and how the team play of Overwatch actually works etc.
Heck, forced 2-2-2 makes playing tanks and healers more enjoyable, because both are much more dependent on good teamplay and at least decent comps. Being the only healer or tank in 1-4-1 is a miserable experience most of the time, let alone being the only tank or healer with 5 DPS in the team. Stuff like suddenly realizing you're solo tanking as Hog (who suuuuucks as a solo tank 99% of the time) because your Orisa team mate swapped to Hanzo is the reason why people stop playing tanks and healers altogether. So not only will more people play tanks and healers in order to get shorter queues, but in a forced 2-2-2 environment players might do so because it's genuinely more fun to heal and tank in a balanced comp.

And yeah, the whole thing is obviously catering towards healer and tank players. Which I'm fine with not only because that describes me as a player (and maybe I'll finally be able to choose to specialize in one of the other, instead of always trying to fill missing roles trying to get a semi-decent team comp), but because as the years go by I've become convinced that tank and healer mains are more or less like GMs in tabletop RPGs: they're a smaller % of the playerbase, but without them most games plainly suck. They're not as vital as GMs in tabletop RPGs (for one GMs are a even smaller % of the gaming population, and in trad RPGs you literally cannot play without one), but IMO the comparison is apt in the sense that catering to them benefits the whole community, even the DPS players (who I expect will initially howl in anger at the change, because if you exclusively play DPS and have no tank or healer buddies to queue with, you are going to experience some pretty noticeable queue times).

Eduardo Penna
 

awesomeocalypse

Registered User
Validated User
2-2-2 will also incentivize Blizzard adding more tanks and healers. DPS are I think easier to design and more popular overall, so its always going to be tempting to keep adding more, but the game needs more tank/healer options more than it needs more dps options right now.
 

Aikireikinu

Tsundere Cat
RPGnet Member
Validated User
I will agree that 2-2-2 will make adding new tanks and support, and that is a benefit that I hadn't considered. It's a lot easier to balance a new tank if you only have to consider how it will work alongside one other tank.
 
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