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Pandemonium Games and the strange death of WEG

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hellsreach

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Banned
Ah, the old keep the business solvent by taking on personal debt strategy. Never a good idea, and the opposite of the point of establishing a corporation, but not all that uncommon among passionate small business owners.

But here's the thing - WEG is still broke, even if it gets in that A/R money (since it will go to paying off the liabilities). It still lacks a product people want to buy, with tons of old inventory sitting around taking up space. There's still no money to produce new products. It still won't make enough money to pay a living wage. And frankly, I've seen nothing to hat suggest that the business management will be any less poor in the future.
Outside of a few bills like a phone bill, and old UPS bill, etc. WEG doesn't have any more "bills" or debts besides the preorders. I clearly stated that my taxes were personal property taxes and were being paid through working a second job. I do not and will not pay personal liabilities from corporate taxes.

As for lacking a product people want to buy, you are incorrect again. Junta continues to sell steadily and well. WEG doesn't pay living wage to me anymore not because it cannot, but because it's not really my job anymore. I have another job to provide my (meager) wages. Of course, to be frank, my wages with WEG were always meager. Almost no one does this business for the money.

WEGS A/R does not represent the only value left, simply the largest quick asset. If I decide to continue making product in the future, WEG certainly has the means to do so. Still, my main focus on providing anything to the community, after this refund business is done, is to release the D6 SRD and make Open D6 a reality and the whole process initially will net me zero dollars. However, that is the point. I'm not doing it for the money per se. Though I do trust it will help increase the player base for D6 and provide a large market to sell product to for both WEG and anyone else using Open D6.

I still don't see a future for WEG. Becoming bankrupt is hardly the only good reason to close a business. If it won't make money and causes a strain on the owner's personal life, that's an excellent reason to walk away from a business. Pride and passion are nice, but sometimes cold, hard logic is the smarter way to think about things.
[/QUOTE]

You are correct, but lack of high profits is hardly the only reason to run a business either. Trying to run the business full time and not get moeny from any outside source caused my life stress, so I got a job. Having high overhead costs and other high bills caused me stress, so I got rid of them and started shoestinging everything. Incurring more personal debt to feed WEG caused me stress, so i do not do so anymore -- ever. In fact, all those things that caused me personal stress except the current situation has been systematically removed. soon I hope to remove this final major stress, with the full refund of the preorders and then I can focus on more positive things, like getting D6 out there for free.

Despite WEG being for more meager than it was a few years ago, it's actually more stabile (on paper) and although lack of cash is a major problem for any business, it is a temporary issue.
 

hellsreach

New member
Banned
It also applies to boths sides of the table here, too.
Let my formally apologize to everyone for my lack of professionalism, especially with regards to Dana. Unfortunately these public forums are the method he is choosing to assault me, and although I should be the bigger man and ignore him, I have a weakness for trolls that lie about me or creatively interpret things I post to make be out to be a villain.
 

Macross

Retired User
Fact:
3/31/08 Septimus is Cancelled

Fact:
7/20/08 Nearly 4 months and no refunds or product exchanged. With the exception of this week. News has been quiet and emails are often reported going unanswered.

Draw you own conclusions.
 

DJorgensen

New member
Banned
You really are the master of reading things I DIND'T write into threads to suit your own definition.

I didn't say I have not product on hand and wouldn't have considered it. I said I maintain virtually any our products at a fulfillment house, I was referring to product LINES, nit individual copies and even then it was in direct refence to suggestions that I didn't have the money to pay for shipping product TO DISTRIBUTORS. I also never remotely used the fact that I do not have copies on had as an excuse for not shipping product. If I didn't happen to have that product on hand, I'd give Impressions a call and have him ship me a box or two within the week. I said, to paraphase, that I didn't need to pay for shipping because they are shipped out by our fulfillment house and they take a percentage cut of wholesale -- as is the standard for order fulfillment in this industry.
Actually, the problem is you don't pay any attention to what you say. Let me repeat what you said for you.

"I don't sell copies of Junta out of my basement. Junta, and virtually all our print products, are maintained at a fulfillment house and they are shipped, along with others, and my share of the shipping is taken as a percentage of overall sales. Thus, I don't pay shipping, I just get a lesser portion of wholesale."

which then couples with a second quote:

"Most of the books are in Indiana, I am in Pennsylvania. even shipping from there to here would be somewhat costly and I would just piss off more people with slow shipments."

I don't seem to be reading anything into it at all, other than specifically what you said.


Hell, I won't even get into the amusement of you using a fulfillment house when you posted this ad in another thread in 2005.

I have roughly 50 or 60 copies of Junta, a couple thousand copies of D6 Adventure and dozens of copies of nearly every current product in either my basement, or my garage. In fact, much to my wife chagrin, a full half of my garage is filled with something on the order of 7 or 8 pallets of books, files, old art and other such things.
And now you've contradicted yourself, going from having almost nothing on hand to having half a truckload of product crammed into your house.

Just like the "got $12 to my name for the rest of the month," "the last two months, bills have been on the brutal side," "sales down" and "owe 2 years of back taxes" but "have enough short term A/R supposedly incoming to make like none of this ever happened."

For everyone's sake, can you please stop posting Dana. Your trend of misquoting me at best, or lying just as often is getting old and is not helping any of the good folks for whom deserve their timely refund or exchanges.

For the love of god, why do you persist with this combative agenda. Can't we just agree to move on, not talk to or about each other any more, and simply agree to dance a private jig when the other is pushing up daisies?
Because for a long time now, I've realized you seem to be the same sort of individual as Ken Whitman. And just like Ken Whitman, people really, really need to know and understand this. Way back in the mid 90's, I watched Ken Whitman sweet talk his way into conning, cheating, lying to, stealing from, leading awry, and ruining a number of friends who have since dropped out of the industry from the experience. For more than a dozen years, I let people know what he did in the past, and I wasn't the only one. As I said, once you say something on the internet, it never, ever goes away.

Two years ago, I watched more friends get suckered by the collapse of GoO. If Mark MacKinnon ever makes another go at a gaming company, I'll make sure no one forgets what happened with GoO.

And now I've got more friends who currently feel like they're being suckered by you. So now your words get to haunt you. At least until you go and make things right, thus demonstrating you're a stand up but horribly foolish, inexperienced and flawed guy, rather than the same sort of guy Ken Whitman is.
 

DJorgensen

New member
Banned
Ho, ho, you've gone done opened up a whole new can of worms.

More incriminating quotes for you, since you've taken to crying "liar,liar,liar!" in most of your posts.

hellsreach said:
Company funds have never gone to back taxes. Back taxes are PERSONAL property taxes and that is one of the major reason I had to put WEG on the back burner and go back to work -- to pay property taxes on my house (along with a mortgage, child support, gasoline to get places, credit cards) -- if you must know my personal financial obligations.

In fact, WEG's problem for the last several months has really ONLY been one of cash flow, and while that is a problem it is not unsual for most small businesses to have period of cash flow issues.

Again, WEG is not insolvent and although you would love to creatively interpret everything I say to deny that, it doesn't change the truth.
hellsreach said:
Outside of a few bills like a phone bill, and old UPS bill, etc. WEG doesn't have any more "bills" or debts besides the preorders. I clearly stated that my taxes were personal property taxes and were being paid through working a second job. I do not and will not pay personal liabilities from corporate taxes.
So... WEG is generating negligible debt, you haven't produced any new product in nearly 2 years, so there's been no recent spike in the outflow there... And some accounts receivable are paying reliably, like your OBS account, which in one thread you claimed paid as much as $500 a month.

Since you're essentially claiming WEG isn't spending much money, where did the $5500 in preorder funds go then?

As for lacking a product people want to buy, you are incorrect again. Junta continues to sell steadily and well. WEG doesn't pay living wage to me anymore not because it cannot, but because it's not really my job anymore. I have another job to provide my (meager) wages. Of course, to be frank, my wages with WEG were always meager. Almost no one does this business for the money.
Whoah, wait... So WEG can afford to pay you a living wage, but doesn't because you aren't working at it full time anymore? The fact that WEG apparently has the funds to pay at least one full time salary means there's money to pay back at least some of the outstanding refund debt.

You are correct, but lack of high profits is hardly the only reason to run a business either. Trying to run the business full time and not get moeny from any outside source caused my life stress, so I got a job. Having high overhead costs and other high bills caused me stress, so I got rid of them and started shoestinging everything. Incurring more personal debt to feed WEG caused me stress, so i do not do so anymore -- ever. In fact, all those things that caused me personal stress except the current situation has been systematically removed. soon I hope to remove this final major stress, with the full refund of the preorders and then I can focus on more positive things, like getting D6 out there for free.
But wait, now WEG has high overhead! Big bills! Make up your mind already. High overhead or no real bills, which is it?

And wait again! Let's requote some of the quotes!

"In fact, WEG's problem for the last several months has really ONLY been one of cash flow"

"Incurring more personal debt to feed WEG caused me stress, so i do not do so anymore -- ever"

Honestly, do you think at this point anyone believes the two years worth of overdue property taxes aren't the result of ongoing problems you've been having with WEG?
 

Christopher V. Brady

New member
Banned
Dana? Do you have a pre-order with WEG? If not? Go away. Now you're just trolling.

Frankly I have no stakes in this, but now, you're just stalking him. And that's just creepy.
 

Crimson Reaver

Vulcanising
Validated User
Well to be honest, this thread has made my mind up for me. To owe $5500 would be over 2 months net salary to me and to be perfectly honest having wanted to take product, I'd much rather have the cash back in my account, because my Credit Card is charging me interest on a balance that is higher for having pre-ordered Septimus.

I sincerely hope that my UK bank won't bother trying to charge back my order, and will simply cough up what I paid out, but from what I can see Eric is simply asking for more time to pay everyone back, which has been done before and to me isn't acceptable any longer. It's coming up to a year since my pre-order so I can't really delay beyond this point.

I got the e-mail and I will respond with a request for product in place of a refund as I would still like a book and refunds to the UK are more complicated for businesses, but I will be filing a report with my credit card company as Macross has done, I know him well enough to put some store by his decision to bump this up a notch. If I get something through in terms of product or a refund, or I get some indication that others have received a refund and I'm just behind them in the queue then I'll cancel the report straightaway.

Eric, you have my sympathy and my apologies, I have been one of the people who has cropped up in every thread like this and you're probably sick of me haranguing you. I wish you all the best and I don't doubt that as a person you sincerely wish to get this sorted out and repair your reputation. However this is a business transaction, not a loan to a friend, and after 10+ months I'm going to start treating it as such. Had it been a different industry, there is no way I would have waited this long before doing something.

To everyone else in this thread, I'd just appeal to keep this civil, it makes no sense stoking what is already an inflamed situation. The simple matter is that there are probably 3 options open to people who pre-ordered. You can either go to your credit card company, have faith in Eric and have that faith justified with a refund, or you can have faith and be disappointed when you get nothing back. Different people are going to have different views on how to act, but you've got to take those decisions from a business standpoint. Holding off gives Eric more time to steady the ship and makes it more likely we'll see more D6 stuff in the future through OpenD6, but you also risk getting nothing. If I'm being honest, I have all the D6 I need, it isn't something I'm going to spend more money on to get another generic system. If WEG goes under I'll be sad, but it's not going to affect me personally.

Anyway, shall we try to keep the peace?
 

jgants

Registered User
Validated User
Outside of a few bills like a phone bill, and old UPS bill, etc. WEG doesn't have any more "bills" or debts besides the preorders. I clearly stated that my taxes were personal property taxes and were being paid through working a second job. I do not and will not pay personal liabilities from corporate taxes.
I never said you were paying off personal debt with company money. I was suggesting that you racked up personal debt by either continually investing more money into WEG or by deferring/canceling wages to yourself (which, technically, should be a liability for the company).

OK, so if WEG has no real monthly expenses then I have to repeat Dana's question - how did the $5500 manage to get spent then? Because I'm not seeing where the money could have gone (as you haven't produced anything new except Junta in the last couple of years, and you've stated Junta more than pays for itself).

As for lacking a product people want to buy, you are incorrect again. Junta continues to sell steadily and well. WEG doesn't pay living wage to me anymore not because it cannot, but because it's not really my job anymore.
Well, I was referring to your own previous statement about every previous product you released lost money and the other one where you said you had stacks of unsold books sitting around that you can't move.

OK, so you've essentially said:
1. Junta sells steady and well, more than paying for itself. So much so, it could pay a full-time salary if you wanted it to and negates all the money lost on the previously unsuccessful D6 and Torg projects you tried.
AND
2. WEG has virtually no month to month expenses.
BUT
3. WEG still managed to spend $5500 of preorder money in less than a year, despite not releasing any new product.
AND
4. WEG is currently broke and has been for the last several months to a year. So much so that it can't afford to ship out even a single product.

1+2 != 3+4. Those statements simply don't add up. Where did the money go? And why isn't there any money now? It just doesn't make sense - all of those statements simply can't be true. There's either a big piece to this puzzle that is missing or at least one of the above statements isn't entirely true.

WEGS A/R does not represent the only value left, simply the largest quick asset. If I decide to continue making product in the future, WEG certainly has the means to do so.
See, this confuses me. $5500 is a very, very meager sum of money. I, personally, could have raised that much extra money in a couple of months (apart from my monthly expenses) with just my normal salary and a little belt-tightening.

The fact that WEG couldn't raise that tiny amount of money over the course of several months makes me wonder how it could ever afford to do another big project (which should cost considerably more than $6K).

You are correct, but lack of high profits is hardly the only reason to run a business either. Trying to run the business full time and not get moeny from any outside source caused my life stress, so I got a job. Having high overhead costs and other high bills caused me stress, so I got rid of them and started shoestinging everything. Incurring more personal debt to feed WEG caused me stress, so i do not do so anymore -- ever. In fact, all those things that caused me personal stress except the current situation has been systematically removed. soon I hope to remove this final major stress, with the full refund of the preorders and then I can focus on more positive things, like getting D6 out there for free.
I think its great you've been trying to reduce the stress (it's a killer, after all), reduce the business into something more manageable, and want to get a free D6 out there. But I'm not sure what's left is really a business - it's more like the business wasn't really that viable so it got turned into a hobby.

Dana? Do you have a pre-order with WEG? If not? Go away. Now you're just trolling.

Frankly I have no stakes in this, but now, you're just stalking him. And that's just creepy.
Dana is hardly the only one raising criticisms, though. And despite any personal issues between the two, Dana has raised some good points. If we just look at Eric's posts alone, there does appear to be some very contradictory statements going on (not that I'm saying he's lying, just that some stuff doesn't make much sense).

For instance, it makes absolutely no sense that WEG paid a living wage but Eric decided not to work at it full time and instead took a different job, and has managed to rack up a lot of personal debt. Now, maybe his definition of "living wage" differs from mine, but if you can't afford to pay your regular bills (like property taxes), then I wouldn't consider that a living wage.

And really, it doesn't matter if he or anyone else has a preorder or not. We're all allowed to voice an opinion or criticism, whether anyone likes it or not.
 
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