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[rant] Game Balance (1 Viewer)

talysman

Validated User
Validated User
I hate game balance.

I said this as an aside to a comment about advantage/disadvantage systems in another thread, and I've said it elsewhere, earlier. But now it's time to rant about it. This could easily expand into a whole series of "I hate ____" rants, mostly centering on what I see as "the common jargon" -- terms we toss about as if they have a specialized meaning and as if we all agree on whatever ideal it's supposed to represent. When, in fact, we don't.

I hate that bastardly phrase, "game balance", with an unthinking fury. When I see someone say, "this game is not balanced," or, "you need to add X to make the game balanced," I know immediately that that person's opinion is worthless.

There are a lot of reasons why I hate game balance, mainly because, as I've just suggested, there are a whole lot of definitions of "game balance" flying around, so many that I consider the term practically meaningless. That alone is reason #1 to hate it. At least most uses of the term aren't completely retarded; there's at the very least the assumption that you are trying to balance two or more things against each other. Unfortunately, there are about a thousand things people may talk about "balancing". Lumping them all together as "game balance" not only starts needless arguments, it leads people to think some of these different things are somehow related.

I also hate several individual instances of "game balance". For example, one somewhat common, but not THE most common, use of the term is "spotlight sharing". It's obviously what Whitemagebishieboy was thinking of in that other thread when he chastised me this way:

To say that you despise the idea of game balance means you despise the idea of equal participation, yes i used hyperbole but that is why to show what a complete lack of game balance means. Despising game balance means wanting someone to participate less than someone else, so either you want to participate less or you want your friends to participate less.

It does? Too bad that's not what I was talking about. More on that later. But, aside from the fact that it's inefficient and confusing to call spotlight sharing "game balance" when spotlight sharing is just as good a term, I think it's stupid to worry about this kind of "game balance" ON THE GAME LEVEL, because it's primarily a social issue. Somebody's not letting other people play? Tell him "knock it off". Or kick him out of the group. That solves your "game balance" right there.

Although Whitemagebishieboy's comments seem to be talking in a purely social level (who gets to participate,) there's another related kind of "game balance" that's best defined as "participation in the mechanical system". For example, Christopher V. Brady provides this example of an imbalanced game:

Let's say you're playing a game and you're playing a Fighter type. You walk into a fight, full armour and carrying a big ass weapon. You came into the game wanting to kill monsters and take their stuff.

A simple enough archetype.

So you come into the evil greebly base and start swinging your sword. The die rolls are with you, so your killing a few on the way to the big bad boss. Now because of the way this game is set up, it's taking you a few hits to get the average soldier type goon to go down. But this is normal, so you roll with it.

Suddenly, it's the Wizard's turn, and he casts a SINGLE spell and lays waste to every mook and monster in the place, leaving the boss free and clear.

Your GM tells you it'll take 'one round' to reach the baddy and do the fight that's the high point. You're running up to him, the Thief has spent the last round sneaking up to him... The pieces are in place for the next turn. The Wizard casts another spell and destroys the boss in one shot, just before anyone else can do anything.

That's a reasonably presented example, and it makes me almost sad to trash him. What he's talking about is everyone having equal mechanical participation at any given moment in the game: everyone can make a roll or otherwise do something.

This is a nonsensical desire.

First, because neither the real world, nor (non-roleplaying) games, nor any of the various forms of fiction that RPGs draw upon for inspiration, have any sort of "balance" in this sense. There's no such thing as "equal participation at every given moment". There may be equal participation ON THE AVERAGE, over a long period, but reality, games and fiction tend to focus on one thing at a time, or at least just a few things, with a whole lot more being ignored. There's an ebb and flow to events. "Equal participation at every given moment" sounds like the kind of crap the hippie teacher in "Beavis and Butthead" would espouse. Good luck convincing your fellow players that every combat, or worse every round of combat, should be inclusive for all the players. You might want to sing the lesbian seagull song for inspiration.

Second, building on that "ebb and flow" comment, what the given example suggests is that the Wizard hung on to his two spells until the climatic moment. Up until that moment, it was probably the Fighter doing all the work, fighting off the hordes, with the wizard casting hardly any spells at all. It varies depending on the game system, of course, but a lot of fantasy games turn magical characters into one-trick ponies. The whole thing sounds like sour grapes: "I got to dominate almost the entire game, but DAMMIT, I wanted to dominate the climax, too!"

Third, though, the whole analysis is wrong, because it's defining "participation" as purely mechanical, and furthermore measuring "degree of participation" in terms of damage delivered or enemies slain. If you're playing a multiplayer CRPG, I can see how this might matter, since those aren't real RPGs. But presumably tabletop gamers are doing planning and discussion, so even when the Fighter is racking up all the kills and the Wizard is hanging onto his two measely spells, the Wizard still participates -- just not magically. And likewise, the Fighter might not get many, if any, licks in during the climatic combat, but presumably participated non-mechanically with some tactical discussion before entering the room, at the very least. Even if the Wizard went against the plan and wiped out the opposition before anyone else could take action, the Fighter had *some* influence on that decision, if only by being an insufferable gloryhound for the entire adventure.

But now it's time to move onto other kinds of game balance, which are just as stupid. The preceding pair are about balancing players against each other, giving them some kind of "equal participation". People also talk about balancing characters against each other, or characters against NPC opponents, or more generally players against the GM. These three kinds of game balance are more common definitions, from what I've seen in game reviews or forum discussions, and it was these kinds of game balance I was thinking of in that other thread about advantages and disadvantages (because, COME ON, most advantage/disadvantage systems are obsessed with character-to-character balance, not about player-to-player balance.)

Character-to-character game balance is about making sure that, at any given level, point budget, or whatever other system a game uses to separate different character power levels, all the characters are roughly equal to each other in power. This is obviously not to stop players from whining about not being able to participate, but to stop them from whining about Player Joe being able to do something that seems much cooler than what THEY can do, themselves. To restrict this to a fantasy dungeon combat example, like Christopher's, this is where the Fighter and the Wizard both get to kill lots of guys, but the guy playing the Fighter complains that *he* had to kill enemies one at a time, but the Wizard killed a bunch of enemies at once, AND got a cooler incidental special effect of tiny fires started by the Wizard's Fireball. Honestly, the guy playing the Fighter should just grow up already.

Character-to-opponent game balance is about making sure that the characters are facing opponents of about the same power level, maybe a little tougher or a little weaker, depending on pacing. Great idea, if you're trying to emulate CRPGs. If you're playing Gamist, then it's sort of a given that the GM shouldn't "cheat" and hit you with something you aren't ready for. The problem is that, if you're trying for more of an adventurous feel, knowing ahead of time that any challenge you face will be sort of evenly matched kind of spoils the mood.

Player-to-GM game balance kind of ties into that, at least in terms of Gamist play, but there are certainly other things people might want to balance between the players and the GM, like who gets to control the story, or who gets more spotlight time (kind of like the player-to-player spotlight time mentioned earlier, except it's players whining about all-powerful GM Mary Sue characters, or GMs whining about players taking up too much time with character-to-character dialogue.)

My hate for all three of these forms of game balance, and even for the previous two, can be summed up in: I do not give a crap about these things. I play RPGs to create fictional events (not necessarily "story", but that's a different discussion.) I'm interested in game systems that enable the creation of entertaining fictional details of an interesting fictional world. So, while I'll allow that a so-called "balanced" game, in any of the above senses, might make a fictional world I'm interested in, I'm sick to death of people applying THE SAME GODDAMN STANDARDS TO EVERY POSSIBLE FICTIONAL WORLD. There are a hell of a lot of fictional and real-world examples of someone suddenly getting all of the glory with little effort; as long as the players let this generate conflict BETWEEN THE CHARACTERS instead of between themselves, this kind of stuff creates a more interesting game. In certain play styles, you should *encourage* a Fighter getting all pumped up to fight hordes of orcs, only to have the Wizard easily wipe them out, after days of barely being able to deal with staying on a mule without injuring himself. It creates an interparty rivalry that makes adventuring more interesting. Hell, I know at least one game (The Fantasy Trip) gave extra experience points for the death blow, to encourage rivalry between characters, each trying to be the one who dealt the final blow.

Should I have been less hyperbolic and said "I hate the phrase 'game balance', because it's practically meaningless, and I hate the assumption that all games should be 'balanced' the same way"? Perhaps. But FUCK IT. I'm not backing down. I HATE YOU, GAME BALANCE! YOU DESTROYED MY FUN!
 

TheMouse

garmonbozia
Validated User
20 Year Hero!
Good use of random caps. A bit long. About the right level of obscenity. Could have used a bit of random italics or bold. Nice use of multiple quotes. Strong ending.

I give it an 8.
 

Pandora Caitiff

Goblin Princess
Validated User
Sometimes I want to play the inept sidekick of the awesome fighter. Other times want to play a 5/4/3 martial artist with my 3/4/5 cop buddy.

Sometimes I want to play the insurgents with sticks taking on the Glorious Solar Empire's tank platoons. Other times I want to play chess.

You can have both.
 

LeftWingPenguin

Dual-classed GM/Rabbi
Validated User
20 Year Hero!
Sorry, but what you are saying makes no sense to me. The whole point of having mechanical gew-gaws for your character (powers, skills, feats, etc.) is to be able to use them, either to solve in-game problems or to affect the in-game world the group is constructing.

Spending game-resources to buy gew-gaw A only to find out you will never get the chance to use it because someone else spent an equal amount to buy gew-gaw B, which does everything gew-gaw A does only better, is annoying. Hence, people who are interested in designing games (which mostly consist of gew-gaws) talk in terms of "balance," i.e. the general principle that two gew-gaws costing the same amount of in-game resources, ought to be roughly equal to one another when it comes to accomplishing the task they were designed for.

Obviously balance is not the only relevant principle when designing gew-gaws, and it might be outweighed by other principles, but completely ignoring it is likely to lead to upset players.
 

Sage Genesis

OG Murderhobo
RPGnet Member
Validated User
20 Year Hero!
Quite a lot of presumptions going around here.

The wizard effortlessly ended the huge fight, but the fighter shouldn't whine because he was being useless earlier on in the adventure. Oh? Says who? At higher level the wizard can cast more than enough spells over the entire day. Maybe the system doesn't even use that kind of limitation and the wizard can cast his uber-spells 24/7. Maybe there even wasn't a previous adventure but they just spontaneously picked a fight.

The best part about this is that talysman rejects spotlight sharing, but then uses it as an argument as to why the fighter-wizard situation is ok.


Not a very valuable rant. It misunderstands a lot and presumes even more.
 

Dbohr

Umwelt
Validated User
I give this rant a solid A+. While it could use more profanity, it also gets bonus points for the excellent argumentation and clarity of points. It doesn't hurt that I think the OP is bloody right :D

Game balance is way overrated. I realize some people like it, and I have no problem with this, but it's not my cuppa.
 

crueldespot

Validated User
Validated User
Second, building on that "ebb and flow" comment, what the given example suggests is that the Wizard hung on to his two spells until the climatic moment. Up until that moment, it was probably the Fighter doing all the work, fighting off the hordes, with the wizard casting hardly any spells at all. It varies depending on the game system, of course, but a lot of fantasy games turn magical characters into one-trick ponies. The whole thing sounds like sour grapes: "I got to dominate almost the entire game, but DAMMIT, I wanted to dominate the climax, too!"

That would be true in a well-balanced game. If the wizard has to conserve resources in order to outshine everyone at the end, then I don't think anyone should complain about game balance. If a certain game system or supplement provided the wizard with unlimited super blasts so that he always outshines the others, then wouldn't you concede there might be a....(I can't avoid using the word) game balance issue?

The problem is not hurt feelings. The problem is that soon the players of the fighter and thief will say "Fuck this. I want to play a wizard, too." Then you have a whole group of wizards, and you might find that boring for the lack of variety. On the other hand, if you are running a Harry Potter RPG or something, it might be fine for everyone to be a wizard, and you can run a wizard-themed story.

The worst consequence of game imbalance is that certain options get shunned, and others become real popular. One game balance complaint I have heard is about d20 Star Wars: that it isn't balanced because Jedis are just better than non-jedis. (I haven't experienced this firsthand, I just heard about it). If so, then fine. Everyone roll up jedi characters. As long as you don't mind this, it's not a problem. But if you feel that all the different character types must be represented, and someone has to draw the short straw to be forced to play a non-jedi, or rogue, or whatever is shunned, then it might be annoying.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 

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