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S3 of Star Trek Enterprise is shockingly different from S1-2

KaijuGooGoo

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Maybe he wasn't the only person who could have done the job he did, but Future People have seen enough timelines where someone other than Archer was in the chair, and Earth's first big foray went badly as a result.

If you want to blame something, blame the feelings in the US about the Founders of the Constitution - maybe a different group could have done the same or better (although someone like Washington who had the ability to gain power, but the temperament to peacefully hand it over has proven uncommon over history), but they were the ones who were actually there and actually did it, so they get the credit.
 

Atlictoatl

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Maybe he wasn't the only person who could have done the job he did, but Future People have seen enough timelines where someone other than Archer was in the chair, and Earth's first big foray went badly as a result.
You realize those are both made-up stories that glorify the importance of the individual over sociological pressures, yes?

I suppose we don't have the benefit of timeline examination to measure the validity of the theory, but most scholars agree that a large number of significant events in history occurred because of multiple pressure points. While one actor may have been a flashpoint, it's highly likely that if that actor hadn't been X, it would have been Y, Z, or other letters of the alphabet. Details of the ensuing events would certainly have been different, but a flashpoint was an inevitability.

If you want to blame something, blame the feelings in the US about the Founders of the Constitution - maybe a different group could have done the same or better (although someone like Washington who had the ability to gain power, but the temperament to peacefully hand it over has proven uncommon over history), but they were the ones who were actually there and actually did it, so they get the credit.
Huh? The Founders are the ones who did it, so of course we give them credit. Had a handful of them died in their youth or otherwise been unavailable, it's likely others would have participated, though the fine points may have been different. But the United States were inexorably headed to separation from England somewhere in the vicinity of 1776, and a Constitution for the new State was inevitable, barring some sort of dictatorship.

I'm not snarking on hero worship after the fact, I'm snarking on the concept that if Thomas Jefferson James Madison had never been born, the US would have never had a Constitution.

And I really don't understand how the "feelings of the US about the Founders" has anything to do with a culture of hero worship in modern media, or the idea that the influence of the individual trumps all else. I think it unlikely that writers/producers in Hollywood are giving much brain space to Founders, and I haven't thought about them since middle school. They were also a body of influential personages, which kind of sells my point about individuals being less important than sociological determinants and multiple related actors and actions.
 
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Atlictoatl

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Just a reminder: Nobody spoil anything!
For a 16 year old TV show? Are you being sarcastic?

Edit: I edited the Subject of the thread. Here there be spoilers. The core premise of the thread (discussing how S3 is different than S1 and S2) is a spoiler.
 

mpswaim

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If you want to blame something, blame the feelings in the US about the Founders of the Constitution - maybe a different group could have done the same or better (although someone like Washington who had the ability to gain power, but the temperament to peacefully hand it over has proven uncommon over history), but they were the ones who were actually there and actually did it, so they get the credit.
That's 40 people (signatories to the US Constitution), and doesn't include John Adams or Thomas Jefferson, among other revolutionary notables. I don't see going from dozens of people working over years to affect change to this great man was instrumental.
 

KaijuGooGoo

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And I really don't understand how the "feelings of the US about the Founders" has anything to do with a culture of hero worship in modern media, or the idea that the influence of the individual trumps all else. I think it unlikely that writers/producers in Hollywood are giving much brain space to Founders, and I haven't thought about them since middle school. They were also a body of influential personages, which kind of sells my point about individuals being less important than sociological determinants and multiple related actors and actions.
It could work backwards, and some people treat the Founders as Magical Hero Figures because modern media is big on Magical Hero Figures, but I think the US has always been big on Great Men.

If your issue is that Trek pushes "Great Man" over "Great Institutions", yes there is a lot of that, but there are also a lot of plots based on the best solution at the end of the day not being Hard Great Men Making Hard Great Decisions, but Starfleet People sticking to the virtues of the Federation. It really only gets to me when you have characters who are predestined to greatness for some reason or another, and that is something of a pet peeve.
 

Atlictoatl

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If your issue is that Trek pushes "Great Man" over "Great Institutions", yes there is a lot of that, but there are also a lot of plots based on the best solution at the end of the day not being Hard Great Men Making Hard Great Decisions, but Starfleet People sticking to the virtues of the Federation. It really only gets to me when you have characters who are predestined to greatness for some reason or another, and that is something of a pet peeve.
Well, my issue is with Hollywood only being able to tell one story -- and it usually being only one type of person (white men) who the story's about -- and it's getting triggered by specific stuff in the S3 finale, which is absolutely trying to pull off some predestination crap. I mean, there's multiple factions from the future pulling strings in the present (of the show), and they're all obsessed with Jonathan Archer. Not Starfleet. Not T'Pol. Or Trip. Or Porthos, the true brains in the Ready Room. Archer, the son of the man who invented the warp engine that took humans into space.

The whole plot line is one big predestination arc.
 

Atlictoatl

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Starfleet Operational Security: In addition to our protocol of sending only senior staff onto dangerous away missions, critical ship roles will be specialized, only one staff member will be qualified to conduct them, and if specialized staff are incapacitated operations must grind to a halt. Additionally, on dire missions involving the possible extinction of entire sentient species, when a critical piece of technology is involved, crew members must bring only one unit of said technology. Backups are an unnecessary waste of resources.
 

KaijuGooGoo

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The whole plot line is one big predestination arc.
I guess "history has you doing this Thing, so go out there and do this Thing (or don't, if I don't want you to do that Thing)" doesn't bother me quite on the level of "you were born specifically to be this Special Magical Person who must do this Thing at this time", which another, better Trek show did.
 

Atlictoatl

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I guess "history has you doing this Thing, so go out there and do this Thing (or don't, if I don't want you to do that Thing)" doesn't bother me quite on the level of "you were born specifically to be this Special Magical Person who must do this Thing at this time"
Point taken.

which another, better Trek show did.
Do tell...
 
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