[Shadowrun 4e]Comparing Karmagen and BP (1 Viewer)

[Azaael]

This is a long post here, so bear with me.

I noticed how the Karmagen system on average typically gets people a little nervous; since it can produce ''higher end'' characters. Now, the SR4A Attribute fix(Rating x5 rather than 3) seems to fix this up, but not totally.

I decided to take a closer look at it. (I am not even getting into Priority yet, as I've found that makes characters considerably less powerful than the BP system. I'll want to look at that eventually, though, to try to tune it.)

For starters I decided to convert over the sample character crew from SR4A to Karma, and this is how it turned out. I used the SR4A Attribute advancement, but otherwise the unchanged RC Karmagen system(750 Karma.)

Spoiler: Show

Bounty Hunter: Atr: 390 ,Resources: 40 , As: 144, KS: 42 Contacts: 28 Total: 644

Enforcer: Atr: 430 Karma, Resources: 22 Karma, AS: 200 Karma, KS: 39 Karma, Contacts: 18 Total: 709 Karma (this guy had some extra BP with qualities, +10 BP)

Combat Mage: Spells: 40 Atr: 345 Karma, AS: 149
KS: 48, Resources: 8, Contacts: 16 Total: 606 (he had some extra BP with qualities as well, +20 BP)

Gunslinger Adept: Atr: 405, AS: 136, KS: 48, Resc: 18, Cont: 28, Total: 635(gains +5 BP with Qualities)

Street Sam: Atr: 300, AS: 199, KS: 25, Resc: 78, Cont: 22, Total 634

Street Shaman: Atr: 310, AS: 120, KS 64, Resc: 2, Cont 14, Spells 20, Total 530(gains +5 BP with Qualities)

Occult Investigator: Atr: 325, AS 166, KS 60, Resc 10, Cont 28, Spells 25, Total 614

Drone Rigger: Atr: 270, AS 197, KS 69, Resc 100, Cont 16, Total 652

Technomancer: Atr 350, AS 161, KS 76, Resc 6, Cont 16, Complex Forms 93, Total 702(Has some extra BP as well from qualities.)

Covert Ops: 335 Atr, 162 AS, 52 KS, 20 Qualities, 32 Resources, 20 Contacts, Total 621

Face: 355 Atr, 168 AS, 63 KS, 20 Resources, 40 Contacts, Total 646(+5 BP Qualities)

Hacker: 305 Atr, 185 AS, 71 KS, 60 Resc, 24 Cont, Total 645

Eco-Shaman: 360 Atr, 167 AS, 50 KS, 6 Resc, 18 Cont, 30 Spells, Total 631(this one got +15 BP for - Qualities)

Smuggler: 320 Atr, 192 AS, 68 KS, 100 Resc, 28 Cont, Total 708(+30 BP in Qualities)

Sprawl Ganger: 385 Atr, 176 AS, 46 KS, 12 Resc, 20 Cont, Total 639

Weapon Specialist: 250 Atr, 176 AS, 44 KS, 20 Qualities, 52 Resc, 24 Cont, Total 566

Grand total of 16 Sample Characters. Whew! These run the range of 530 Karma to 709 Karma, yet they were all built with 400 BP. Now, granted, some of them were more than 400 since they got some extra BP with negative Qualities...but they are still kinda...all over the place. For example, the Street Shaman is a 405 BP character(recieving +5 from Qualities), yet they are at the bottom of the list in Karma cost. The Combat Mage and the Enforcer are a 420 and 410 BP character respectively; yet the Combat Mage is over 100 karma LESS than the Enforcer.

I decided to do another comparison. I had decided to remake my beloved 3e Kid Stealth legged elven 'cyberdemon' massacre master, Samael, under 4e rules. We like Karmagen, so I used that system. But for comparison, I also converted him to BP afterward. I then compared him with the Enforcer, as you can see here:

Spoiler: Show

Attributes:

Enforcer: 190(430 Karma)
Samael: 210(340 Karma)

Samael spent more BP here. Enforcer more Karma. Here is where the ''Big Race'' numbers come into play. Samael's stats are mostly 3-5 with a 2(his big thing are extrordinarily strong and pimped out raptor legs which give him his schtick, but that's Resources.)

Race:

Enforcer: 40(0 Karma)
Samael: 30(0 Karma)

Metas don't cost under Karmagen(which I know is one big problem people have), however, if using the SR4A rules, as you can see above in Attributes, the x5 cost is a fair equalizer here, IMO.) If you put Meta cost into Karmagen(at a BPx2 Karma Cost), the Enforcer would have been 71 points Illegal.(He would have just made the cut if just BP in Karma was charged.)

Active Skills:

Enforcer: 160(200 Karma)
Samael: 130(160 Karma)

Well this looks accurate at least.

Knowledge/Language:

Enforcer: Free/39
Samael: Free/40

Close here.

Resources:

Enforcer: 11BP/22 Karma
Samael: 48 BP/96 Karma

Here's a big difference. Due to having big, pimped nasty legs his resources needed to be high.

Contacts:

Enforcer: 9 BP/18 Karma
Samael: 12 BP/24 Karma

Bit of a difference here, but not much.

Qualities:

Enforcer: +10
Samael: Neutral

Just equaled my guy's out.

Now, Samael does have 12 BP worth of Martial Arts Maneuvers(24 Karma), which the Enforcer does not have. But it's not a HUGE difference.

Total BP Cost:

Enforcer: 410(remember he's legal from the negative quality)
Samael: 442

Total Karma Cost:

Enforcer: 709
Samael: 684

..Yeah. My fella cost 32 BP more than the Enforcer, but 25 Karma Less than the same character.

Now, I got to thinking back in 3e-I noticed that the Companion point buy, the Priority system, and the BeCKS system were all very much damned close to each other. BeCKS and Karmagen are essentially the same thing; karma based character creation. So why did one come out much closer?

For those who aren't as familiar with older Shadowrun, BeCKS is here. Keep in mind it was tuned to 3e's balance system, and if you didn't know 3e's stuff it might not make much sense to you, but I'll post the link anyway.

Now, once difference between the two is that BeCKS charged for metahumans, while RC Karmagen doesn't. However, BeCKS gave free Knowledge skill points, while Karmagen makes you buy them from your full pool of Karma points.

Now, the way 4e Karmagen works is that you get half your Karma to spend on attributes, with same limitations(you can only max one, for example.) Metahumans can spend half their Karma, plus their BP cost x2 on their Attributes(so Elves are allowed to spend 375+60 Karma on their attributes, for example.) However, Attributes in Karmagen seem to be ALL lumped together-so Magic and Edge are counted in this, unlike in BP(where you can spend half your BP on basic Attributes alone, Edge, Magic and Resonance are not counted in this limit.)

At first, I thought an easy fix: 650 Karma to even it out, since it seems to be the 'average' that a 400 BP turns into. But then I thought more into it and looked at the conversions above. Under 650, 325 would be the Attribute limit for humans, with 385 for Elves, 405 for Trolls, 365 for Orks, and 375 for Dwarves. Under this rule, the Enforcer, the Drone Rigger, the Technomancer and the Smuggler would all be illegal(even though they're built under SR4A rules) due to being more Karma than the rest. The Gunslinger Adept would be illegal in the Attribute department, as would the Sprawl Ganger, due to the fact their attributes go over the 365 Limit.

So...it's strange. The fact of the matter is, 400 BP characters can be worth SO much different levels of Karma(and don't forget my own character's conversion-who ends up very high on the BP but under even some of the non-optimal sample characters Karma wise.)

I'd love to figure out a way to BeCKS-ize the Karmagen system in the sense that the characters produced are less all over the place in costs and a bit more even in level, but I don't know where to start.

I'm considering looking at ''Make Metas cost their BP in Karma but give Free Knowledge skills'', but...Humans then would benefit greatly from this. Then there is ''Shave down to 675 Karma, charge Metas their BP cost in Karma but give Free Knowledges'', but once again-Humans would edge out here(no pun intended ), and again, there are 400 BP characters that can go this high or higher.

My other thought is 675 Karma, free metas, pay for knowledges out of the pool. I think-personally-this might bring the characters a bit closer in line with the ''Average'' 400 BP. I also considered 675, pay for Metas and get free Knowledges-but I'm a little worried how much of an edge this might give humans.

Anyone try this out at all? I apologize for the long post, but I'd love to find a way to get Karmagen tweaked so GMs don't hold up a cross and holy water when you mention it. (well, in my usual gaming group we have no problem with it as is but I've seen some...rather heated responses to this system.)

 

[Cain]

Don't try to compare the two systems. Only madness can come of it.

But are you running with the German errata? That makes a huge difference.

 

[Azaael]

Don't try to compare the two systems. Only madness can come of it.

But are you running with the German errata? That makes a huge difference.

Well, my german is equivalent of about three words.

Is there an English translation of the German errata, as funny as that sounds?

And yeah, I kinda see what you mean. I have gone mad already trying. I think I've just seen enough things that made me crazier so this isn't so bad.

I guess I wanted to compare them since all the chargen systems back in the day seemed to work so well closely compared to each other. While there were some differences in some things(In SR3, it was farily well determined a Human Mundane made out a bit better under Build Points than Priority, but Metahuman Magicians made out a bit better under Priority-but the differences were not that much and you could mix and match the two in a game with little problems.)

 

[Cain]

There are some theoretical comparisons, but nothing concrete. For example, theoretically Karmagen favors builds with lots of midrange skills. In practice, you can hardmax quite easily and efficiently under karmagen. Nothing like what you're asking for: is build X favored under system Y.

The German errata changes the karmagen attribute costs to those in SR4.5. This makes a huge difference in the way the two systems are balanced. Karmagen now theoretically favors skills even more.

 

[Azaael]

There are some theoretical comparisons, but nothing concrete. For example, theoretically Karmagen favors builds with lots of midrange skills. In practice, you can hardmax quite easily and efficiently under karmagen. Nothing like what you're asking for: is build X favored under system Y.

The German errata changes the karmagen attribute costs to those in SR4.5. This makes a huge difference in the way the two systems are balanced. Karmagen now theoretically favors skills even more.

Those comparisons I did above then use the German errata. I used the SR4A Attribute advancements for them.

Oh, and what I'm actually trying to do is not figure out what is favored under what-as I honestly already can tell that somewhat-Orks looove BP for example, (especially those Intuition Mage orks ), and BP seems to favor a ''pump it while you can since it's going up, especially if you're playing a meta whom you want to have good stats in their high scores'' mentality. For example, I try not to be a microscopic minmaxer, but I do want my character to look like what I'd like; which means their most important, character-centric skills I don't want to go away. If something is going to go under the BP system, it's going to be those little skills that I can buy with a handful of Karma, if I need to pull points from somewhere.

Karmagen, though-I find(especially under the SR4A Attributes) even with 700-750 points or so, I really have to think about how high I jack those attributes. I mean, in the Enforcer's example above? I don't think I'd ever dump 9's into a Troll's Body and Strength unless it was *really* super-duper-part of the character, and then I'd figure an 8 could still suffice it as ''A Big Strong Troll'' just fine. Buying high Attributes under Karmagen is a huge, huge point cost. (To give an example, for a Troll to buy a 9 Body, it costs 150 Karma. That's 1/5 of your starting Karma of 750. For one stat. A 9 Body and Strength would be 300 Karma, or almost half your starting Karma. Even a hardened person would think about putting that much karma into TWO stats.)

I mean, I did some math, and hardmaxing with the SR4A rules is not easy. For the Troll example, ''Hardmaxing'' I consider having 1 stat at max and all the others at 1 under; I can even minmax this and put the max stat as Charisma to save some Karma here. The cost to max a Troll's stats(under SR4A) would be something around 595 Karma, and would be totally illegal at that(since it goes over their allowed Karma attribute expendature-I didn't count Edge in this, by the way.) In fact, I don't think any race can hardmax their stats legally under the erratta. For a human to purchase a line of 5's, it would be 560 Karma(again, not counting Edge). The max I think a human can work their stats(assuming they don't dump any) is a line of 4's, which is just a little above the 400 BP method(which has 4x4 and 4x3 as the max you can get), and getting the all 4 spread is worth about half a human's Karma. I also notice with Karma and Attributes, for humans(well, for stats at a 1-6), the 4 seems to be the ''Comfortable''' cutoff for most people. It's 45 Karma to get a stat to 4 from 1; that extra 25 Karma(for a total of 70) can be a turnoff, especially when one thinks how it costs 25 Karma to get a stat from 1 to 3.

I think no matter how it's looked at, certain builds will likely favor certain methods-I mean even in the old very well balanced Prio-BP-BeCKS trio, you could see it. Skill-heavy builds in 4e will definitely favor Karmagen; people who want to play metas who actually favor their bonus stats(Body/Strength trolls and orcs, Charisma elves, etc), will probably favor BP. In my example above of remaking my 3e guy, he definitely made out better under Karmagen with his Skills; his 400 BP version is perfectly playable(exact same attributes to a T and cheaply gotten as he doesn't even max his allowed limit on them), but the skill difference is noticable.

I'm just more or less trying to figure out a way to adjust Karmagen so people aren't as scared off by it. The SR4a Attribute rules seem to go quite a long way in doing that, however. (Thinking back, I do admit that x3 cost was pretty cheap, and I think people are still a little worried about that.)

 

[Droogydroog]

The original author of Karmagen posted this errata, which is what was incorporated into the German translation:

p.41 Karma Character Generation Table
The Karma Cost for Metatype (shapeshifter type, etc.) should be “As BP*.”
The Karma Cost for improving an attribute by 1 should be “New rating x 5.”

p.42 Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
The first paragraph should read:
“First you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option (i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma); the BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p.73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new character races in this book provide your character’s starting and maximum attribute ratings.”

p.42 Step 5: Convert Your Karma to Nuyen
The second line should read:
“A maximum of 100 Karma may be converted to nuyen in this fashion, or 120 if the character has the Born Rich quality (p.96).”

p.43 Focus Bonding Table
The Karma Cost for weapon foci should be “3 x Force.”

 

[Azaael]

Hmm! I think the Atr x5 and charging for race at regular BP cost might actually tie them off a bit, very nicely, in fact.

Keeping the 750 is a nice deal actually, since you don't get free Knowledge Skills under this method. I guess the author realized the not charging for Metas thing wasn't as great an idea, though I can fully see why they didn't want to charge 2x the BP cost. I mean, on paper the idea behind meta balance looked nice enough(they need to pay more for their high stats), but in practice it could throw things off a few ways. Charging BP cost in Karma seems to be just enough to circulate some of their starting Karma out of the system.