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(Silmarillion) Beren and Luthien Destroy Everything For Love

Litpho

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Well, Turin's luck had to go somewhere...

And really, where better than the cousin who had pretty much the exact same genes he had, who he saw across a valley that one time?
Nitpick: Turin didn't see Tuor, being caught up in anger and grief and not being able to pierce the veil of Ulmo on Tuor and his Elven companion Voronwë.
 

mindstalk

Does the math.
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Well, Turin's luck had to go somewhere...

And really, where better than the cousin who had pretty much the exact same genes he had, who he saw across a valley that one time?
I thought they passed on the road. But it's been a long time.

Beren and Aragorn wouldn't be happy either. "Wait, he just *let* you marry her?"
 

Fabius Maximus

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True, but the fault isn't that of Beren and Luthien.

The epic fail from which the whole epic . . . um, epic arises is Thingol's. When Beren turns up on his doorstep, ragged and dirty and human, and dares to ask for the hand of his daughter, Thingol decides to be an enormous douche and find a way to kill the bum without just doing the deed himself. And then he makes his terrible error:

He says out loud that he wants one of the Silmarils.

That's the foundation of the whole tragedy. The Silmarils were cursed - even to name one of them covetously would set a vast and terrible force in motion. Before that moment Thingol and Doriath had kept themselves separate from the Doom of the Noldor - but with that one statement he bound his fate with everyone else's. His wife even saw it coming, but didn't say anything in time, and ended up losing everything she loved as a result.

The tragedy is all about pride and greed, which is close to being Tolkien's dominant theme. The difference here is that the love of Beren and Luthien actually causes some beauty to arise from all that Gotterdammerung.
Yep-- oen fo the big things about Tolkien is that oaths are important. Th3ey bind you and will destroy you if you fuck with them-- and their was no oath more terrible than the oath of Faenor. Remember this-- in all of Tolkien's books, I think that was the only oath that was sworn on Eru.
We can't know how things would hav eplayed out otherwise, but Faenor and his kids managed to make an oath that pretty much destroyed the world.
Hell, compared to that, Gollum got off light with his oath.
 

ShanG

青铜时代的中&#
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I thought they passed on the road. But it's been a long time.

Beren and Aragorn wouldn't be happy either. "Wait, he just *let* you marry her?"
Elrond was Beren's Something-Grandson, and he did jerk Aragorn around for a period of... what, like 50 years? But he presumably learned something from Thingol, and decided if he was going to set a difficult task for the man wanting to marry his daughter, he should be careful it wasn't something that would destroy him.
 

Proteus

Yours Pedantically
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Yeah. For Tolkein, evil generally comes from starting with reasonably noble intentions and gradually sinking into worse and worse means which eventually twist your intentions.
I always think about Saruman, who seemed to fall crazily quickly. I mean, the guy is planning to betray Sauron, but seriously, raising an army of Orcs is a pretty unambiguous sign that something's gone wrong with you morally.

-Proteus
 

tavella

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Beren and Aragorn wouldn't be happy either. "Wait, he just *let* you marry her?"
Turgon was slightly wiser than Thingol (though not enough to bail on Gondolin when a god told him to) and Tuor had several advantages. He was raised by elves from birth, so he probably knew all the right elfy-welfy things to say, his father died saving Turgon so the king owed him, and most importantly, he had a Vala on his side, making sure he turned up in nice shiny armor and clearly blessed by the gods.
 

GestaltBennie

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Turgon was slightly wiser than Thingol (though not enough to bail on Gondolin when a god told him to) and Tuor had several advantages. He was raised by elves from birth, so he probably knew all the right elfy-welfy things to say, his father died saving Turgon so the king owed him, and most importantly, he had a Vala on his side, making sure he turned up in nice shiny armor and clearly blessed by the gods.
If I recall correctly, Tuor spent some years living in Gondolin and Turgon had a chance to get to know him pretty well before consenting. Elrond, of course, knew Aragorn well, Thingol and Beren... not so much.
 

mindstalk

Does the math.
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Back to the thread subject, how unfair of me is it that I recall the Tale of Beren and Luthien as the Tale of Half-Angel Luthien kicking ass and BMX Bandit Boytoy Beren coming along for the ride?

"I can change shape, change the shape of others, win combat with godlings and put the devil to sleep."
"I hit things with a sword and have high endurance."

"I could steal a disguise, sneak in, and try to stab him in the back."
"Or I could use my magic songs."
"You always say that."
"It always works."

Important tip for jealous fathers: don't pick a task your daughter can sneak out and help with.

Unless she's going to sneak out anyway, then I guess it's safer to pick something she can do. But if you acknowledged that much power and free will in your daughter you probably wouldn't be setting jerkass tests.
 

tavella

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And really, Beren had his own advantages. Thingol may have been a meanie, but Beren had Luthien, the most badass elf who ever lived, taking his part. She overcame *Morgoth*, man. Fingolfin, greatest warrior among the elves, only gave him a limp. She walked into Angband, put the whole host of evil to sleep, and took a Silmaril from his crown. And then when Beren fucked up, she convinced Mandos to free him. Mandos!

And the sons of Feanor, you know, the ones bound to do anything to recover the Silmarils, the ones who slew elves by the thousands, went after Morgoth, waged war, etc, etc, defied the Valar themselves? Even they knew better than to try to take it from Luthien.
 

tavella

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Back to the thread subject, how unfair of me is it that I recall the Tale of Beren and Luthien as the Tale of Half-Angel Luthien kicking ass and BMX Bandit Boytoy Beren coming along for the ride?
No, that's pretty accurate. Beren's brave and loyal, but Luthien does the work.
 
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