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(Silmarillion) Beren and Luthien Destroy Everything For Love

JohnBiles

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I always think about Saruman, who seemed to fall crazily quickly. I mean, the guy is planning to betray Sauron, but seriously, raising an army of Orcs is a pretty unambiguous sign that something's gone wrong with you morally.

-Proteus
Saruman basically spent centuries slowly spiralling downward to get to the point where he then openly declared himself and began doing things like locking up White Council members and breeding orcs.


If I recall correctly, Tuor spent some years living in Gondolin and Turgon had a chance to get to know him pretty well before consenting. Elrond, of course, knew Aragorn well, Thingol and Beren... not so much.
Thingol basically regarded humans as scum. Hell, he regarded most of the Noldor as scum too.

He then changed his attitude and... well, Turin. So maybe it would have been better if he'd stayed hating them :)
 

g026r

I'm a boat
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Saruman basically spent centuries slowly spiralling downward to get to the point where he then openly declared himself and began doing things like locking up White Council members and breeding orcs.
Indeed. What we're seeing in the Lord of the Rings are the first major (and boy are they major) outward manifestations of his spiral. Given his continual secret search for and lying about the fate of the One Ring that precedes the books, it's obviously a path that he's been on for quite a while.
 

Ratman_tf

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If I recall correctly, Tuor spent some years living in Gondolin and Turgon had a chance to get to know him pretty well before consenting. Elrond, of course, knew Aragorn well, Thingol and Beren... not so much.
And Beren was the first mortal to even ask for such a thing. AFAWK.
 

jackselectrichead

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And Beren was the first mortal to even ask for such a thing. AFAWK.
Yeah, but wasn't he something like the son of a vassal in good standing? I'm not sure if his father was Thingol's vassal or not, but the kingdom was eradicated in the service of the Noldor. Something was owed.
 

jackselectrichead

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Heh. No, that's pretty much how I pegged it. And a lesson that devices aren't in and of themselves bad.

Back to the thread subject, how unfair of me is it that I recall the Tale of Beren and Luthien as the Tale of Half-Angel Luthien kicking ass and BMX Bandit Boytoy Beren coming along for the ride?

"I can change shape, change the shape of others, win combat with godlings and put the devil to sleep."
"I hit things with a sword and have high endurance."

"I could steal a disguise, sneak in, and try to stab him in the back."
"Or I could use my magic songs."
"You always say that."
"It always works."

Important tip for jealous fathers: don't pick a task your daughter can sneak out and help with.

Unless she's going to sneak out anyway, then I guess it's safer to pick something she can do. But if you acknowledged that much power and free will in your daughter you probably wouldn't be setting jerkass tests.
 

Kelly Pedersen

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Yeah, but wasn't he something like the son of a vassal in good standing? I'm not sure if his father was Thingol's vassal or not,
The status of the lords of the human Houses in Beleriand is a little unclear (they were either very, very highly respected and independent vassals, or else they were independent rulers who really, really loved the elven kings and deferred to them quite a bit), but whatever the case, yes, Tuor and Turgon had a close relationship, since Huor, Tuor's father, was the younger brother of the Lord of Dor-Lomin under Turgon's brother, Fingon, and Turgon inherited Fingon's title of High King of the Noldor. Plus, of course, Turgon had a close relationship with Huor and Hurin, what with fostering them for a year when they were boys, and then the Men of Dor-Lomin holding the rearguard after the Nírnaeth Arnoediad.
Plus, of course, Turgon would have remembered Huor's death-prophecy that out of Huor and Turgon a new star would arise, which probably swayed things in Tuor's favor later as well!

Edit: Oops, you were talking about Thingol and Beren. Sorry, lost track of the discussion a bit there.
In the case of Thingol and Beren, they weren't so close. Beren's father was in service to Finrod Felagund, not Thingol. In fact, Thingol was the one major ruler in Beleriand who had not taken any Men into his service. Thingol was related to Finrod (Finrod was his grand-nephew, to be precise), but while he was friendlier with Finrod than the other Noldor princes, I doubt Thingol would have felt too bound by any oaths of fealty between Finrod and Beren's House.
 
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JohnBiles

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In the case of Thingol and Beren, they weren't so close. Beren's father was in service to Finrod Felagund, not Thingol. In fact, Thingol was the one major ruler in Beleriand who had not taken any Men into his service. Thingol was related to Finrod (Finrod was his grand-nephew, to be precise), but while he was friendlier with Finrod than the other Noldor princes, I doubt Thingol would have felt too bound by any oaths of fealty between Finrod and Beren's House.
Thingol calls Beren a thief on first meeting him, so it's not a very friendly meeting.

Thingol pretty much did not have much regard for men, though Beren's deeds and the valor of Hurin changed his mind enough for him to take in Turin as a fosterling. (Because of the tales of Hurin's valor at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears)
 

Quenditar

Designs worlds badly
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To be fair to Beren, he did manage to choke Curufin and could have killed him (with Huan keeping Celegorm at bay). Nowhere near as impressive as what Luthien did, but a Man taking down an Exile prince is impressive in its own right.

Beren's role is a bit like Pippin's, actually, minus the foolishness; he's quite competent and punches above his weight, but he's not a minor god and is going to look like a tagalong compared to one.
 
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