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Star Trek Discovery - Red Angel - Spoilers

SetentaeBolg

Registered User
Validated User
We were actively at war with them and we dont have the Prime Directive either. I dont see the feds arresting Gul Ducat whenever he steps into Fed jurisdiction
They have diplomatic relations with the Cardassian Empire and Gul Ducat is a representative of them. If they arrested him it would have immediate diplomatic implications. Ultimately the only way to stop the Cardassians or the Klingons is via war or a more protracted diplomatic and cultural approach.

They have no diplomatic relations with the Mirror Universe. They know that Georgiou was responsible for multiple acts of genocide, torture, slavery and cannibalism (which can be attested via computer records and direct witness testimony).

To put it another way, if you found a man on a desert island atop the corpses of the thousands he had killed, tortured and eaten, would you say "Nope, we don't have jurisdiction"? If you would, you would be failing justice.

Just as another point universal jurisdiction is not restricted to the Nazis, you can read the wikipedia page if you'd like to learn more about how, in the real world, it is applied:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_jurisdiction
 

Mallus

Registered User
Validated User
I don't think it does generally ask us to side with her, except when that means siding with someone who's more in the right, like Burnham or Spock.

It just asks us to be entertained by her.
That's my take, too.

I think there's enough room in the Star Trek universe for things as diverse as TNG's technocratic, meritocratic board room meetings *and* Discovery's (and TOS's) forays into gonzo pulp sci-fi.
 

LibraryLass

Feminazgûl
Banned
Validated User
They have diplomatic relations with the Cardassian Empire and Gul Ducat is a representative of them. If they arrested him it would have immediate diplomatic implications. Ultimately the only way to stop the Cardassians or the Klingons is via war or a more protracted diplomatic and cultural approach.

They have no diplomatic relations with the Mirror Universe. They know that Georgiou was responsible for multiple acts of genocide, torture, slavery and cannibalism (which can be attested via computer records and direct witness testimony).

To put it another way, if you found a man on a desert island atop the corpses of the thousands he had killed, tortured and eaten, would you say "Nope, we don't have jurisdiction"? If you would, you would be failing justice.

Just as another point universal jurisdiction is not restricted to the Nazis, you can read the wikipedia page if you'd like to learn more about how, in the real world, it is applied:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_jurisdiction
Would it help you feel better if she said something to the effect of...

 

SetentaeBolg

Registered User
Validated User
Would it help you feel better if she said something to the effect of...

I don't think so. It wouldn't diminish the feeling that the writers want me to be intoxicated by her glamour and power, and ignore the questions about how her evil fits in with the Federation, especially after the supposed moral epiphany it had in the last series.

I don't hate a good villain. I love a good villain. Servelan from Blakes Seven is fine by me. I can enjoy Hannibal if well-written (the TV series, for example). I feel annoyed by this character because she (partly through the context the writers have placed her in) is a rubbish villain.
 

mpswaim

Emo Dad
RPGnet Member
Validated User
I don't think that Georgio's the villain this season. That appears to be Control. Georgio's the evil teammate/ally. She doesn't want humanity to be wiped out any more than anyone else.
 

LibraryLass

Feminazgûl
Banned
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I don't think that Georgio's the villain this season. That appears to be Control. Georgio's the evil teammate/ally. She doesn't want humanity to be wiped out any more than anyone else.
Humanity's where she keeps all her favorite stuff.
 

St.Just

Lacking all conviction
Validated User
But Mirror Georgiou isn't Pol Pot. She's Ming the Merciless (in a catsuit).

The Mirror Universe isn't used to make serious inquiries into or commentaries on evil. It's there for Star Trek writers to have fun, to cut loose. Think back to the original MU episode, "Mirror, Mirror"; MU denizens act and dress like barbarian pirates, everyone carries an "agonizer", the star map-and-laurels emblem of the Federation is replaced by a big sword through the Earth - it's a whole parallel universe of cartoon villainy. By design. This trend is continued in DS9 with things like the high-camp Intendant.

The one somewhat serious thing the conceit is used for in "Mirror, Mirror" is to characterize Mr. Spock. Turns out he's pretty much the same person in both universes. As for Georgiou, I'm fine with her being funny, in the same way I don't begrudge Ming or Hannibal Lector the occasional bot mot.

I can understand not like the Mirror Universe, but as far as I can tell Discovery is using it as intended.
I do think there's something a bit..irksome about bringing the mirror universe home though. so to speak?

Like, vampy Mirror-Kira was clearly a cartoon villain more than any actual lens to look at anything serious. Which is why they, well, left her in the mirror universe. Because having her hanging around shooting off zingers would have kind of ruined the mood of Duet.
 

Mallus

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I remember watching Mirror Mirror when TOS was played in the UK in the 80s - it is not camp in the slightest (it is now dated, of course, and in retrospect may appear silly to a modern audience unprepared to adjust its view of an old show), and certainly not camp in the way that deliberately camp TOS episodes were.
I first saw "Mirror, Mirror" as a child in the early 70s, so I'm not really a 'modern audience'. More a 'yup, still here' type :). The Mirror Universe started off as kinda ridiculous; it's hard to take the knives, sashes, promotion-via-assassination completely seriously. The Mirror Enterprise is run like a comic book writers idea of a totalitarian pirate ship. Mirror Kirk as Stasibeard. It's glorious, but not too serious. And too be fair, I didn't say the original episode was campy (I was specifically talking about Kira Nerys as the Intendant in DS9).

If they didn't intend Georgiou to be a serious character I question what she's doing in an otherwise serious show.
Georgiou is intended to be a Mirror Universe character. Her performance is within tolerance limits (for me, at least). I mean, the original was a serious show but often struck different tones in different episodes. Admittedly, DISCO can do this from scene-to-scene, but personally I like the texture that gives a work.

The only outright comedic character we've seen is Mudd, who is quite clearly (in TOS and Discovery) drawn as such.
Nitpick: Mudd is outright comedic in his 2nd TOS episode. Much less so in his first.

Are we talking about the same Mirror Mirror here?

The one where everyone has a big sash and Chekov launches a coup attempt?
And Sulu is sporting a huge fake knife scar. Because this is also the Pirate Universe!

I believe you overestimate the seriousness of both Disco and Star Trek in general. Star Trek always has been pulpy Space Opera-- yes with something to say, often, but just as often for fun-- and is continuing to be.
Exactly. Even TNG, which often tried (too) hard to keep its air of respectability wasn't afraid to use a take on the Old Testament God as comic relief, ie Q.

I can't really think of the show ever really holding up a genocidal monster who brags about having ended other species as anything but a badguy. Even if Georgiou was Ming the Merciless, Ming is still a villain, and meant to be treated as the morally reprehensible creature he is.
Empress Georgiou *is* a badguy. Badperson. She's (mostly) an antagonist who's fun to watch as she vamps it up among the squares, ie what any good Mirror Universe character is used for.
 

SetentaeBolg

Registered User
Validated User
I think there are enough people (who usually love Trek!) who feel otherwise that it might reasonably be identified as a writing problem. I appreciate it's not for you, but it pulls me out of the story. I can't stop wondering why they haven't put her in prison forever.
 

Chaomancer

CotTS High Magician
Validated User
I feel weird about this episode - I enjoyed it, but the holes oh god the holes are eating at my brain.

The Mousetrap doesn't work. It's based on the idea that the Red Angel appears to save Burnham - except that's based on two data points, neither of which support the Mousetrap.

First: the Red Angel appeared to save Michael on the asteroid. Except she didn't save Michael, as far as we know? Unless I misremember, she just appeared and walked towards an awe-struck Michael then vanished as Pike appeared to beam her out. So that one doesn't fit the theory, since Michael would have lived without the Red Angel.

Second: when Michael was in deadly danger as a child, the Red Angel appeared to Spock and told him where she could be found, letting him tell their parents, who then saved her. So this one was in response to Michael being under threat of death - but the Red Angel didn't appear at her time or location. She appeared earlier, with enough time to tell Spock, for Spock to pass on the message, and then for travel time.

So, evidence that the Angel will appear at a dying Michael's side to get caught in the Mousetrap? I don't see it.

Worse though: why doesn't the Red Angel just explain herself? They ask that question and brush it aside with the suit's radiation limiting traditional radio and sensor communication. But she could communicate with child-Spock well enough to pass on Michael's location... so why not have a word with adult-Spock?
 
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