What exactly is Mage 20th?

[GreyICE]

Your experience is not universal.

On the V20 blog in 2011, when Justin discussed changing the mechanics to eliminate some of the wonkier stuff (like increased chances of botching with larger pools), there was actually a fair amount of protest. People felt it was an intrinsic part of the Classic WoD experience. So the decision was made to keep it.

Yes, and there were people who thought that THAC0 was a great system and that we should keep it, even though there was maybe a 70% chance you knew what the author was talking about when they said you get +1 to AC.

Well its your business decision, and I respect you had a reason to make it. You'd probably lose customers either way. At least tell me you kept 2E's setting and 3E's paradox, right? And no splitting dice pools?

 

[The_Outer_Church]

Yes, and there were people who thought that THAC0 was a great system and that we should keep it, even though there was maybe a 70% chance you knew what the author was talking about when they said you get +1 to AC.

Well its your business decision, and I respect you had a reason to make it. You'd probably lose customers either way. At least tell me you kept 2E's setting and 3E's paradox, right? And no splitting dice pools?

The plural of anecdote is not fact.

 

[DigitalRaven]

People has botches all wrong...

2nd ed : As long as 1 die come up with a sucess you can't BOTCH. you botch if 0 die comes up with a success and you have 1s. 1st edition botches were if any remainder 1s are there, you botch.

No. That change was made in Revised, not 2nd ed. It also doesn't change the issues with botch probability when you look at the underlying mathematics.

Here's the google cache of the design blog where Justin drops the science on botch probability chances. Note how it goes up when you go from 1 die to 2 at every difficulty above 7, and then loops back down to less likely as the dice pool increases.

The first result on this Google image search is the graph missing from that cached page, showing difficulty (line), dice pool (x), and probability . When the line goes up to start with, that's bad -- the probability of botching goes up when you add dice.

 

[Marc17]

No. That change was made in Revised, not 2nd ed. It also doesn't change the issues with botch probability when you look at the underlying mathematics.

Here's the google cache of the design blog where Justin drops the science on botch probability chances. Note how it goes up when you go from 1 die to 2 at every difficulty above 7, and then loops back down to less likely as the dice pool increases.

The first result on this Google image search is the graph missing from that cached page, showing difficulty (line), dice pool (x), and probability . When the line goes up to start with, that's bad -- the probability of botching goes up when you add dice.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Knowing just enough to be dangerous and all that. In my skilled profession in computers, it is more likely that I will be able to fix a problem than somebody whose troubleshooting can only go so far to turn it off and back on again. It's also more likely that I will irrevocably make it worse by pulling and replugging in cables, changing registry settings, deleting files, etc.

However, IMHO the real issue with botches is that they are presented as always being "something horrible happens to the character" rather than presented as an "excuse for the storyteller to add complication to the story".

 

[Codename: Omega]

As the top of the page points out, release dates are not set in stone. They're estimates, estimates which get revised periodically. Werewolf20 was also originally planned for late last year but was instead released earlier this year. Mage20 sliding around is not unusual, and in fact nearly every product we've had on the schedule has moved at least once.

Having only just received my Deluxe W20 Hardcover (when the PDF and POD versions were released to the public in May 2013), I'm somewhat leery of contributing to the Mage20 kickstarter. Is the production process going to be improved for that or would we still have to wait month to receive the hardcopy through the kickstarter? Because if it's going to be a long time gap between the release of the PDF and kickstarter copies then I'd rather just wait for the public PDF/POD version to come out.

 

[Heavy Arms]

There's always a risk with the Kickstarter hardcopies because they're deluxe editions. They require specialty printing services. If something gets screwed up, then it back-logs in a way that the normal POD service doesn't.

Some of the Kickstarter drives have had much larger wait times on the physical books than others because of printing issues.

There's nothing Onyx Path can to do to ensure that never happens again. They can take steps to reduce the odds, and adjust estimates on production times to match their experiences with this sort of thing, but it will always be a risk.

If you care more about getting the physical book ASAP than having the deluxe copy, then backing for the PDF and waiting for the POD for the physical book is probably a more safe option.

 

[ADamiani]

Your experience is not universal.

On the V20 blog in 2011, when Justin discussed changing the mechanics to eliminate some of the wonkier stuff (like increased chances of botching with larger pools), there was actually a fair amount of protest. People felt it was an intrinsic part of the Classic WoD experience. So the decision was made to keep it.

I think there's a real danger in overlearning the lessons of V20 and applying them to the oWoD generally.

 

[ScooterinAB]

Can I try and pull this back on topic?

Given that I've had past difficulties with Mage, is the 20th anniversary going to be any different? Am I going to have an easier time understanding the rules, or is it just going to be a reprint in a new package?

 

[Heavy Arms]

Given that I've had past difficulties with Mage, is the 20th anniversary going to be any different? Am I going to have an easier time understanding the rules, or is it just going to be a reprint in a new package?

It's hard to say, because we don't know exactly what M20 is going to look like yet.

The 20th run books have been far more on the "reprint in a new package" side of things, but by compiling lots of essential supplements in with the core and making them into a single cohesive whole, there's a bit of fixing and a bit of clarifications to be had as well.

It's going to be Mage the Ascension. None of the core conceits and mechanics are going to be radically altered (though the ones that saw different versions throughout the run of the game might not be the one you expect or might be something that tries to blend multiple versions together).

If M20 properly incorporates some of the supplements, it is possible there are difficulties you had understanding the rules that might go away even though the rules themselves aren't any different; simply because the expanded explanations are all in a single place.

 

[IanWatson]

No. That change was made in Revised, not 2nd ed. It also doesn't change the issues with botch probability when you look at the underlying mathematics.

Here's the google cache of the design blog where Justin drops the science on botch probability chances. Note how it goes up when you go from 1 die to 2 at every difficulty above 7, and then loops back down to less likely as the dice pool increases.

The first result on this Google image search is the graph missing from that cached page, showing difficulty (line), dice pool (x), and probability . When the line goes up to start with, that's bad -- the probability of botching goes up when you add dice.

FYI, all the old V20 blog posts have been archived at the OPP site.

Dice Pools, Difficulty Numbers, and Botching

The botch table