• The Infractions Forum is available for public view. Please note that if you have been suspended you will need to open a private/incognito browser window to view it.

đź’€ Necro What level are Gandalf and Sauron?

migo

whORE
Dragon #5 has an article that argues that Gandalf was at most Level 5, and that Sauron topped out at Level 12, based on the spells both of them used.

This was for B/OD&D. Now that we're at 3.5, what levels do they need for their abilities shown, using feats, prestige classes and templates as necessary.
 

LogicNinja

Budding Supervillain
Validated User
That article is relatively ridiculous. It's hard to stat people/creatures that don't adhere to D&D rules at all. They'll both have a bunch of Outsider hit dice, though--maybe with racial spellcasting. Outsider HD represent Gandalf (who was, after all, a Maiar), the Outsider HD's full BAB would account for his fighting prowess, and racial arcane spellcasting (sorcerer fits him better than Wizard) fits the wizards of Middle-Earth--who were Maia--better than any actual spellcaster levels.

Sauron needs some Divine Ranks.
 

migo

whORE
The diference between that article, and your response, is he went step by step through the effects that were demonstrated and referred to in the book. Magic User was the class then, they didn't have Sorcerers.

So, with reference to the things each of them did, what do they need stat wise to do what they did?

The original LotR cartoon had Saruman casting what appeared to be a Meteor Swarm, meaning he had to be at least 18th level, but I don't recall if that was actually in the book.
 

Master Of Desaster

Have no fear MoD is here
On Sauron:

He got some divine Powers like Worldforging, but then also he is a Fallen one - his abusive use of that power.

Divine Ranks are good. He's pretty high for a god of the LoTR world, but I assume they top out at 6 there - from what I remember the simarillion. So hed' probably be a 4 or 5 divine.

Because he's a devine, what domains would he have?
Air, Fire, Stone, Water
Evil, Knownledge, Destruction / War
But because he's a worldshaper all elemental plains apply, but he does not seem to like Water and Air. He is Chaotic/Evil - as a tyrannt (I am the law ...) , Chaos domain does however not suit - knownledge is better because of his spying. He shows a lot of destructive energy - so Destruction and War fit, too.

If we add "half-fiend" in the interpretation of "fallen" ... he'd get all we need for his destructive side ...

I'd go finally for: Fire, Stone, Evil, Knownledge.

Thinking about the history of the LoTR World ... he'd probably be some sort of perverted Elf a Drow maybe.

Oh ... and about lvl 18 ? I wouln't say that ... Have you seen Prestige Bard on SRD (Variant Rules Unearthed Arcana)?

With that he'd be a high level Sorcerer with Bardic Elements ... , 21 Classlevels to cast that but would also have all the bard Stuff he'd need (or at least be desireable).

So ... some quotes to clean up ...
SRD : drow said:
Drow Traits (Ex)

These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted.

* +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
* Darkvision out to 120 feet. This trait replaces the high elf’s low-light vision.
* Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels.
* +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.
* Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the drow’s class levels.
* Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword. This trait replaces the high elf’s weapon proficiency.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. This trait replaces the high elf’s automatic and bonus languages.
* Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.
* Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). This trait replaces the high elf’s favored class.
* Level adjustment +2.

The drow warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.
SRD: Half-Fiend said:
Special Qualities

A half-fiend has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.

* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to poison.
* Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
* Damage reduction: 5/magic (if HD 11 or less) or 10/magic (if HD 12 or more).
* A half-fiend’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
* Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35).

Abilities: ... Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2.
Skills

A half-fiend gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-fiend gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

Challenge Rating
...
HD 11 or more, as base creature +3.
Alignment Always evil (any).
Level Adjustment +4.
And that's not the divine stuff ;)
 
Last edited:

Old Geezer

Active member
Banned
The diference between that article, and your response, is he went step by step through the effects that were demonstrated and referred to in the book.
Yes, he did.

The article was also a total piss-take that we all glanced at, snickered, and kept going.

You have already spent more time on it than it is worth.
 

SuperG

Active member
Validated User
Yes, he did.

The article was also a total piss-take that we all glanced at, snickered, and kept going.

You have already spent more time on it than it is worth.
The one thing I took away from that article?

'D&D characters, even at low levels, have awesome powers. ENJOY!'

Which seems a good lesson.
 

vivsavage

Independent Procrastinor
Validated User
Dragon #5 has an article that argues that Gandalf was at most Level 5, and that Sauron topped out at Level 12, based on the spells both of them used.

This was for B/OD&D. Now that we're at 3.5, what levels do they need for their abilities shown, using feats, prestige classes and templates as necessary.
You can't stat Gandalf reliably for any game because he wasn't allowed to use his powers to directly battle the enemy. That was part of his mandate (given by the Valar presumably). The only time he really uses what could be assumed to be his full power is when he battles the balrog -- and that is all "off-camera", so we don't really know how he did it.

You can't stat Sauron because he isn't actually portrayed in the books. The only powers we know know of are some ability to shape and twist new breeds of orcs and trolls, to bind others wills to his own, to etc.

IMO from the standpoint of most fantasy literature, D&D 3.5 is pretty ridiculous. Even an 8th level character is more powerful than 90% of fantasy characters. Inflating hit points, endless feats and class abilities, spells that don't fatigue the caster, loads of magic items, etc.
 

migo

whORE
Yes, he did.

The article was also a total piss-take that we all glanced at, snickered, and kept going.

You have already spent more time on it than it is worth.
Because you assumed Gandalf had to be a really high level, and not that LotR was not on a completely different power scale? Orcs were nasty enemies, had Gandalf been much higher than Level 5, the Goblins that captured them in the hobbit wouldn't have been a threat, nor would the worgs have driven them to climb the trees. Given Orcs were dangerous at 1HD, the main warrior characters like Aragorn, Gimli, Boromir and Legolas weren't particularly high. Boromir was killed by a 2HD creature, although he managed to take quite a few arrows.
 

rshambrook

Registered User
Validated User
Tolkien didn't write LOTR to conform to the constraints of an rpg ruleset. His characters had special powers or abilities because that is what the plot required them to have.

But carry on anyway. :D
 

Scurvy_Platypus

I'm Rolpunk, bitches
This was for B/OD&D. Now that we're at 3.5, what levels do they need for their abilities shown, using feats, prestige classes and templates as necessary.
From the sound of your response to Old Geezer, you've already got your mind kinda made up, and are just looking for... I dunno, different people to offer up their conversions?

Based on a post by Ryan Dancy, a number of people feel that D&D is seperated out like this:

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

The post in question is here:
http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6899494&postcount=12

Now, another fellow happens to subscribe to the 5th level thingy, and you can read his thoughts here:
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Scroll down about 2/3 of the way, and you'll see his opinion on Aragorn.

I personally fall into the "I don't care" camp, which is really a third camp to "Is Gandalf 5th level or not?" I play to be awesome, and I run games for others to be awesome in. Worrying about what the stats of a fictional character from a book published half a century ago doesn't seem like a ticket to awesome for me.
 
Top Bottom