The Yann Waters

Under Someone Else's Bed
#71
Monte Cook's World of Darkness seems to do what I'm looking for in a World of Darkness game. It jettisons the metaplot and backstory and the vampire organizations that I really would not want and gives you a clean slate to do with as you want, for the most part it seems.
As I recall, aren't the MCWoD vampires actually spirits of the evil dead released from some nebulously described hell to possess the living?

But yes, that does sound like your preferences might run into some fundamental problems with one of the most characteristic features of all Storytelling settings: supernatural societies of every stripe and variety. Heck, even Prometheans come with a built-in party model, and they are literally hated by everything that exists.
 

Stephen Lea Sheppard

Be seeing you
Staff member
Moderator
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#72
White Wolf's design philosophy dictates that settings come with pre-made organizations and character groups in order to make it easier for newbies to make characters -- ideally someone flipping through the books will hit the splat spreads, see five or ten different types of characters, and one of those characters will make him say "I want to play someone like that!" White Wolf does not, as a rule, release games without that sort of grouping.

These groups (informally called splats by the fanbase for complicated reasons I don't feel like getting into right now) are usually based on different takes on the sort of supernatural entity the game is about. Christianity and crosses and priests and satanism and things being so important in the public's perception of the vampire mythos since forever, Vampire games inevitably have a group with Christian elements in it somewhere. If you're uncomfortable with your supernatural horror fiction treating elements of your faith as mere fiction tropes for use as conceptual toys, it's understandable that the Lancea Sanctum would be a turn-off. It's likewise understandable that the existence of splats at all might not be to your taste if you want less directed setting, a la GURPS or campaign-world-less D&D.

I'm not going to be one of the people in this thread saying "Well maybe if you just read the book you'd have a better idea of whether you'll like it or not!" because I know that there are fifty billion pieces of entertainment media in existence right now calling for our time, money, and attention, and there's no reason why you should pursue something like Vampire: The Requiem (or White Wolf games in general) if you can ask some questions and figure out whether it's to your taste or not without a significant investment of time or money, but the way you keep coming across as, I dunno... offended...? whenever you find something new about the game that you dislike is certainly a turn-off for fans of the game who are investing their time in this thread trying to help you get familiar with the material.
 

Verge

4E Proto-Grognard
Validated User
#73
I think you're going about this in the wrong way.

One, if your friend wants to run a new WoD game, and you are considering obliging him, it's up to you to talk to him and lay out your ground rules.

Two, you haven't even made clear that he's running a Vampire-centered game. If he isn't, great: discussion moot. If he is, just ask him to skip any references to the notion that God had any hand in their creation. It's really easy for him to do in a non-vamp game, and not much harder in a vamp-centric game. Really, nWoD is all toolbox, no canon.

Three, if you have any other religious hang-ups, it's best to actually to get them out in the open when the crux of the discussion is religious hang-ups. I'm not clear why you have a problem with divinely-associated vampires, eight pages in, and my own theories aren't going to be helpful in getting you to try a game I'm enthusiastic about. It's not fair to your friend if you aren't cut-and-dried in your reasoning, especially if it kills his opportunity to run a game for your group.

It's not up to Vampire to be accommodating to your views; it's up to your friend to be mindful of your sensitivities, and you to be clear on what those are.
 
#74
Something I'm curious about, though you don't have to answer. Is what you object to the idea that a large number of vampires interpret their condition according to religion? Or is it that you worry playing in a game would put you in the uncomfortable position of playing a character with views you consider heretical or disrespectful to religion or deity?
If the first, that seems very strange to me because it's exactly what any reasonable person would expect to happen if vampires actually existed.
If the second, you can always not play such a vampire. Nothing in Requiem says any of the groups are correct in their views. Do you object to other settings with major factions who might be sincerely wrong?
 

chiguayante

biggest sword of them all
#75
This whole thing is so bizarre. If you don't like the Lancea Sanctum, then don't include them in your campaign. They aren't EVERYWHERE. Is it really that difficult?
 

daddystabz

New member
Banned
#76
It is simply the order of events. I went to this thread first to try to get some groundwork info. Then I got my hands on a PDF copy of Vampire: The Requiem and researched it a lot, as well as reading reviews and general info online. I found I was not crazy about the Lancea Sanctum and some of those elements. In addition, I also read reviews of the Lancea Sanctum splat book and examined it in my local FLGS, again finding things I did not want to explore within.

To be fair, when you ask seven pages into the thread about the core book which is necessary to play this game you've researched, and you start the thread by asking about stuff that's in the basic Requiem book, it becomes very difficult for us to see what you have researched.
 

daddystabz

New member
Banned
#77
I really do not wish to get into a religious debate or have to defend my religious views on this forum. This is not a crisis and I'm not attacking any fans of the game. Please do not take me the wrong way. I'll sum it up by saying I have very strong religious beliefs and I think there are some themes and areas I am not comfortable in exploring in gaming. I am not fond of the notion that vampires were created divinely. My beliefs are in the goodness and love of the creator and I have a hard time fictionalizing that that same being would create vampires that inherently have to maim and kill innocents. That doesn't jive with me. You guys may disagree with this or even make fun of my concerns but they are mine and mine alone. I don't expect you to agree with me. I was just looking to see if there was a way I could accommodate my player and allow him to shine in a game he is obviously interested in without just saying no outright. I think I have found a solution and that solution is: Monte Cook's World of Darkness, which seems to not have this kind of baggage. I'd rather do that than just play Requiem and cut out some of the fluff to accommodate myself.

Something I'm curious about, though you don't have to answer. Is what you object to the idea that a large number of vampires interpret their condition according to religion? Or is it that you worry playing in a game would put you in the uncomfortable position of playing a character with views you consider heretical or disrespectful to religion or deity?
If the first, that seems very strange to me because it's exactly what any reasonable person would expect to happen if vampires actually existed.
If the second, you can always not play such a vampire. Nothing in Requiem says any of the groups are correct in their views. Do you object to other settings with major factions who might be sincerely wrong?
 

daddystabz

New member
Banned
#79
I forgot to mention I also wasn't fond of the magic the Lancea employ either, that mimics the plagues. Some things to me are sacred and I just do not wish to go there really.
 
#80
I really do not wish to get into a religious debate or have to defend my religious views on this forum. This is not a crisis and I'm not attacking any fans of the game. Please do not take me the wrong way. I'll sum it up by saying I have very strong religious beliefs and I think there are some themes and areas I am not comfortable in exploring in gaming. I am not fond of the notion that vampires were created divinely. My beliefs are in the goodness and love of the creator and I have a hard time fictionalizing that that same being would create vampires that inherently have to maim and kill innocents. That doesn't jive with me. You guys may disagree with this or even make fun of my concerns but they are mine and mine alone. I don't expect you to agree with me. I was just looking to see if there was a way I could accommodate my player and allow him to shine in a game he is obviously interested in without just saying no outright. I think I have found a solution and that solution is: Monte Cook's World of Darkness, which seems to not have this kind of baggage. I'd rather do that than just play Requiem and cut out some of the fluff to accommodate myself.
If it makes you feel any better, one of the writers stated he has this kind of hangup too. The writer simply can't accept that God would exist in the World of Darkness, because if God did exist in the gameworld, he'd have to be insanely sadistic.

In the game setting, there is no proof that God created vampires. Sure, the Lancea Sanctum claim that God created vampires, but all they have is faith, and they are the only vampires who believe it. Furthermore, Theban Sorcery was actually stolen from Egyptian vampires; it does not come from God either.

In fact, the Judeo-Christian God explicitly does not exist in the WoD. The corebook, Mage, and Promethean both refer to a nebulous entity known as the "God-Machine" which may or may not have inspired the stories of the Christian God in the gameworld. All that is known about it is that it creates Qashmalim (angel-like entities that exist to send messages or act as agents of fate, which have more in common with H.P. Lovecraft's nightmares than Renaissance-era paintings) and that it exists in an alternate plane of existence that consists of gigantic clockwork machinery interwoven with bone and muscle.

I forgot to mention I also wasn't fond of the magic the Lancea employ either, that mimics the plagues. Some things to me are sacred and I just do not wish to go there really.
You were to able to watch The Mummy (1999) with a straight face, right? This is the same situation.

You could simply cut the Lancea Sanctum from the game. There's no rule saying you need to have them. You could just assume they don't exist for your game.
 
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