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Worm Bet-the Alternate Thread:The Star Wars Prequel Trilogy Still Sucks Though.

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Sanctaphrax

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I dunno why people are so hard on the Triumvirate. Eidolon and Alexandria are ruthless people with a lot of blood on their hands, but they're still leagues better than your average villain. And Legend actually makes the best of a very bad situation, so far as I can tell.

These are people with enough power to take over a country single-handedly, who are actually trying to help the world instead of enriching themselves endlessly. Alexandria, who cannot be harmed by anything short of an Endbringer (or Siberian) repeatedly goes to fight the Endbringers (and Siberian).

So why do people act as if Alexandria is worse than, say, Valefor? Or Skidmark? Or Hookwolf? Because she's a hypocrite? Because she's stronger than they are? Because she's an authority figure?

It seems weird to me that the evil heroes are regarded worse than the evil villains.

...though, Bonesaw claims that 'natural' triggers are actually an accident. Which would track with the escaped prisoner 777 being Scion/Zion, with him being the grantor of triggered powers as a way to help people without going there personally, to arm them against whatever is making them suffer.
Pretty sure 777 is Shamrock.

The number is a joke in-story as well as out-of-story, I'm sure.
 

braincraft

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So why do people act as if Alexandria is worse than, say, Valefor? Or Skidmark? Or Hookwolf? Because she's a hypocrite? Because she's stronger than they are? Because she's an authority figure?

It seems weird to me that the evil heroes are regarded worse than the evil villains.
It may be less that betrayal and hypocrisy are particularly worse than honest villainy, and more that there's no need to question the moral credentials of avowed monsters. If someone tried to defend the neo-Nazi butchers in E88 and its splinter groups, you'd get just as much vehement pushback (and probably some genuine puzzlement that anyone would declare such a position).
 

Alathon

4d6+27
It may be less that betrayal and hypocrisy are particularly worse than honest villainy, and more that there's no need to question the moral credentials of avowed monsters. If someone tried to defend the neo-Nazi butchers in E88 and its splinter groups, you'd get just as much vehement pushback (and probably some genuine puzzlement that anyone would declare such a position).
Yeah, there's really no discussion to have about Kaiser or Lung, there were so few redeeming qualities. Also.. doing something fucked up behind the backs of people who have entrusted you with great authority, actually is worse than just doing the fucked up thing alone. If by some quirk of moral calculus Jack Slash and Alexandria could be found to have authored the same amount of human suffering over their careers, I'd call Alexandria worse for executing her actions despite the authority entrusted in her to prevent exactly the stuff she was doing. Though Jack has few redeeming qualities, whereas Alexandria has made massive contributions to the continued life and well-being of much of humanity.

Speculation: in her interlude, Alexandria said a body double could/had been found for her. She's old enough that she predates the split from Earth-aleph, wonder if she recruited Alexandria-aleph and got her powers, for when she needed to be in two places at once.
 

Jinx999

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So why do people act as if Alexandria is worse than, say, Valefor? Or Skidmark? Or Hookwolf? Because she's a hypocrite? Because she's stronger than they are? Because she's an authority figure?

It seems weird to me that the evil heroes are regarded worse than the evil villains.
I don't think people do. It's just that there isn't debate about the morality of Valefor, Skidmark or Hookwolf. Their evil is so clear that there's no reason to discuss it. With Alexandria, there's a weird mixture of actions and intentions, of ends and means that makes her morality interesting to discuss.
 

Jim Lee

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I don't hold Alexandria to be worse than some of the actual murderous fucknuggets we've seen on the villain end of things. On the other hand, they haven't put people like Valefor, Butcher or Kaiser in charge, and if you take authority and use it to carry out atrocities, then, well. You don't get to claim any moral highground.


I just find it really frigging weird how people can insist that Taylor deserves to go to prison, and say absolutely nothing about the Triumvirate, or in Wormwood's case, say that Colin is far more morally upstanding than she is, because he regrets his crimes. Of mass murder, and betrayal in the face of an Endbringer.
 

Reveen

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I just find it really frigging weird how people can insist that Taylor deserves to go to prison, and say absolutely nothing about the Triumvirate, or in Wormwood's case, say that Colin is far more morally upstanding than she is, because he regrets his crimes. Of mass murder, and betrayal in the face of an Endbringer.
I think people will tolerate alot more from authority figures than they will from anyone else just out of reflex, or out of some sense that whatever good the authorities do somehow outweigh any crimes. It's why people will accept Jack Bauer or Batman beating information out of people but say it's wrong when a character does it while not being on the side of law. Or why even people who grumble that politicians are all crooks will never suggest that we send the cops into the House of Commons to drag them in to find out.

I see a lot of talk that Cauldron might be in the right too, even though the only evidence to them doing any good comes from the organization's mouth. But Taylor can save hundreds of people and folks will still be wary of her jumping off the slippery slope.
 
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Sanctaphrax

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So the consensus seems to be that the Triumvirate isn't actually worse than the villains, but they get extra flak because they're actually worth talking about.

Makes sense.

That being said, I think some of the evil villains could inspire some interesting conversation. Like Kaiser. The guy actually has good intentions; it's just that his morals are twisted by Nazi ideology.

He works to hurt non-white people because he honestly thinks that that's the right thing to do. "Cleaning up this filthy world" is his goal, IIRC.

So does that make him better than a purely selfish villain like Skidmark?

I think it does. But I can see why someone would think that being devoted to an evil morality is worse than just being amoral.

So maybe we could talk about that sort of thing. Morality in shades of black, so to speak.

If by some quirk of moral calculus Jack Slash and Alexandria could be found to have authored the same amount of human suffering over their careers, I'd call Alexandria worse for executing her actions despite the authority entrusted in her to prevent exactly the stuff she was doing.
Really?

I think that motivation matters more than methods, when the results are the same. Sure, Alexandria is a hypocrite where Jack is not, but she means well and he really doesn't.

Cool idea about the body double, by the way.
 

Wildbow

Retired User
Actually, Kaiser doesn't buy into that ideology at all. He pretends to, and uses it to manipulate others.

One of those facts that I can't quite recall if I shared it in the story or not. So many words to dig through when fact checking.
 

Jim Lee

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I don't cut people in authority extra slack for their actions. I can respect their goals, and their good deeds, and I can even respect the soul destroying decisions they have to make, but I do not have to look at someone with the blood of innocents on their hands and say "Well done. You did the right thing."

If Alexandria was a murdering thug for the Greater Good (which she is) but she was doing so with just her own godlike personal puissance, I'd still regard her as, well, a bloody-handed thug. For her to take vast civil authority and respect, to take the power of the government and combine it with her own personal ability to punch out mountains, means that she's not just a thug, but a war criminal, a criminal against humanity (if that's a term).



To insist that the morally correct way for this story to end is for the apparatus built and headed up by Alexandria and her ilk to send Taylor to prison (for crimes which aren't even a shadow of the Triumvirate's actions) is kinda fucked up.





Anyway.


Thoughts on comparing this to other superhero settings: I like how, once we have our superhero conceits in place, the setting stays relatively grounded one the capabilities of individual capes, with a smooth slope of power which runs from street level up to low tier Superman, but stops firmly short of Cosmic. I like how while lots of characters do have a degree of plot armour, the point gets made, over and over, that no-one is untouchable, that there is almost no such thing as someone being just too powerful for street level people to hurt, somehow. I like how we can see the benefits of having had just one, strictly consistent author the whole way through.


How would we go about fitting the Undersiders, Travelers and Wards into the X-Men?

Ballistic and Sundancer are extraordinarily lethal. Ballistic is a walking railgun who can hit people with hypersonic cars, while Sundancer can burn things which technically are immune to fire. I imagine the writers would have to think really carefully. This is putting a student at the school who could kill the Wolverine if she got careless or lost her temper.

Genesis and Xavier would have some things in common, and she could certainly do with a more relaxed, happy and welcoming environment.
Trickster and Kurt could have fabulous games of teleport chess, because while Trickster's power is more limited, in its mass/location swapping, he can teleport other people, which Kurt can't. Then Trickster gets expelled for being a dick.

Noelle...let's not. The carnage she could unleash at that school would be terrifying.


Flechette would get along ok, I reckon. Perhaps a bit too much PTSD to fit in easily, but fuck it.

Clockblocker...would love it, I think. Maybe. Unlike the Wormverse, the Marvel Universe is not demonstrably losing. In Marvel, countries get blown up and then quietly, I dunno, swept under the carpet or restored offscreen. In Worm, humanity is going to die. Soon. Clockblocker has spent the past six months moving into the headspace of being a soldier on the frontlines, and I think that the relative peace and optimism of the Marvel universe might fuck him up. Also, another person at the school who is relatively squishym being biologically human, but whose power could be gamebreaking if allowed to function without plot armour.


Rachel would be tormented relentlessly by Xavier trying to find a way to 'fix' her or make her happy. Murder dogs would ensue.

Grue, again, PTSD all over the shop. On the other hand, him and Rogue might find it fun to compare notes. His power is less devastating in immediate contact, but more tactically useful/controlling.


Tattletale....Jesus Christ. The things she would do at that school would be beautiful in their wickedness. Given how many of the students are ticking timebombs of one sort or another, she would walk around all day, forcing herself not to pull the trigger.





Hey, how much actual training do they give the Wards? I mean, hang on a second. Flechette should be spending hours in the week on the firing range, and in obstacle courses littered with targets. Ditto Stalker. Clockblocker should be learning how not to get mangled before landing a hit in a close in fight, because typically any fight where he gets the first touch, he wins.

'cos that's a thing which occasionally weirded me out about the X-Men. Stop giving those teenagers heavy duty combat training, you dickhead! The Wards, on the other hand, are sort of intended to go out and get into brawls with folks...which makes perfect sense, considering that Vista is thirteen.


Jesus. Yeah. Worm is definitely set in a crapsack world.
 
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