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Wrath and Glory [merged]

Zehnseiter

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Validated User
#71
Well I guess that's it. The point system, as written, clearly doesn't work. .
I honestly fail to where the point system doesn't work. :oops:

The maths obviously works. You seem to place way more importance on those packages then they are actually worth. They are neither mandatory nor the default way to build your character. They are just there as examples to help you create a character quicker. The book even tells you that.
 
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Professor Polyhedral

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Validated User
#72
I think we're all really confused by what you mean by "clearly doesn't work". If you are playing a tier 2 character, for attributes you can take three attributes at a 4 and four attributes at a 3 and pay 94 points like the english book says. Or you can take two at 4, two at 3, and three at 2 for 68 points like the german book says. Or you can come up with your own spread entirely and pay for each individually. All three options are equally valid and don't actually contradict each other. There's no handwaving required.
So there appear to be two issues: firstly there's a discrepancy between the two editions. Both cannot be correct. That makes no sense at all.
Secondly, using the version I have, the rules as written do not allow me to create a tier 2 character with tier 2 attributes and skills. Again, that makes no sense at all. Perhaps it's intentional, if so why? What's the meaning of a tier system that works that way?

Sure I can reviese the rules and do whatever I like. But that's not the point, which is why I refer to the rules as written. Whether or not I choose to stray from those is my choice but that doesn't mean these issues shouldn't be addressed and that pointing them out isn't valid. I should be able to work from a functioning base.

Again, YMMV
 

Professor Polyhedral

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Validated User
#73
I honestly fail to where the point system doesn't work. :oops:

The maths obviously works. You seem to place way more importance on those packages then they are actually worth. They are neither mandatory nor the default way to build your character. They are just there to help you create a character quicker. The book even tells you that.
The point system fails because I cannot create a tier 2 character with tier 2 attributes and skills. The total point cost exceeds what you are given.

They are there to help you build the character quicker, that's not in dispute. But you still have to pay the price to use them. They are obviously a shorthand, we all agree on that. So I'm unclear as to your point; you seem to be suggesting that, as they are a shorthand, they should be free? I'm not following you

EDIT TO ADD: it isn't just the arrays either. The point cost for buying the same sum of attribute values only separately is the same.
 

Zehnseiter

Registered User
Validated User
#74
The point system fails because I cannot create a tier 2 character with tier 2 attributes and skills. The total point cost exceeds what you are given.
There is no such thing as tier 2 attributes or tier 2 skills in the game.

The only limitation tier places on your attributes is that it caps your starting maximum attribute and it caps the maximum number of CPs you can spend for attributes at character generation. In Tier 2 that would be maximum Attribute 6 and 100 CP. And that is only during character generation.

For skills tiers also cap the starting maximum and you need at least as many different skill as your highest skill rating. Otherwise there is no limit on how many CPs you can spend on them.

These packages are just one example out of a lot of options how you could spend your CPs in tier 2.
Ulisses could have written three of four different examples per tier all with different CPs and it wouldn't change anything about the system maths.

Do you find any place in the book where it tells you that you need to take a tier 2 package to build a tier character 2 ? You just assume that.
You declare the maths of the system broken because you cannot apply an example array to every of the nearly limitless builds the game allows you?

Your problem seems to be that you don't understand really well what a point buy character generation system actually is. (Or maybe you read to fast over the character generation system and now have some assumptions about the tables that are wrong)
 
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jerepp

Registered User
Validated User
#75
The English version of the rules has pretty high prices for the attribute and skill packages and the rule book makes the mistake of using Tier to name the packages... it would have caused far less problems if they had just called the skill package A and Attribute package B instead. But as has been said, there is no discounting in any of the packages - they are just pre-calculated arrays of attribute and skill levels and weather they are called Tier 1, 2 or 3 has nothing to do with the Tier of the campaign you might be running.

In the English rules you will probably have to take lower Tier skill and/or Attribute packages compared to the campaign Tier if you play one of the more powerful race/archetype combos like Tactical Spacemarines or Eldar Pathfinders but be fine using them as is for Human Priests.

In the German version you could probably afford to take the same Tier Skill and Attribute packages but would have a ton of left over points unless you play a powerful Race/Archetype, or more likely you might use the Tier 3 German skill package for your Tier 2 Guardsman.

I am guessing that the German version came out after the English and more than one person felt they had to be able to use the same Tier Attribute and Skill packages as the campaign Tier so they 'solved' the problem by making those packages weak enough that you could use them with all the Race/Archetype combos... really the better solution would have been to call them something other than Tiers that they used for the Campaign power levels and thus make it more clear that they are just pre-priced bundles that do not actually correspond to the campaign Tiers very much.
 

LCDR Seamonkey

Urban Monkey Warfare
RPGnet Member
Validated User
#76
The English version of the rules has pretty high prices for the attribute and skill packages and the rule book makes the mistake of using Tier to name the packages... it would have caused far less problems if they had just called the skill package A and Attribute package B instead. But as has been said, there is no discounting in any of the packages - they are just pre-calculated arrays of attribute and skill levels and weather they are called Tier 1, 2 or 3 has nothing to do with the Tier of the campaign you might be running.

In the English rules you will probably have to take lower Tier skill and/or Attribute packages compared to the campaign Tier if you play one of the more powerful race/archetype combos like Tactical Spacemarines or Eldar Pathfinders but be fine using them as is for Human Priests.

In the German version you could probably afford to take the same Tier Skill and Attribute packages but would have a ton of left over points unless you play a powerful Race/Archetype, or more likely you might use the Tier 3 German skill package for your Tier 2 Guardsman.

I am guessing that the German version came out after the English and more than one person felt they had to be able to use the same Tier Attribute and Skill packages as the campaign Tier so they 'solved' the problem by making those packages weak enough that you could use them with all the Race/Archetype combos... really the better solution would have been to call them something other than Tiers that they used for the Campaign power levels and thus make it more clear that they are just pre-priced bundles that do not actually correspond to the campaign Tiers very much.
Or if they had just clearly labeled them as "Suggestions" and noted that they won't work for every build, so you can and should tweak as necessary.
 

Professor Polyhedral

Registered User
Validated User
#77
The English version of the rules has pretty high prices for the attribute and skill packages and the rule book makes the mistake of using Tier to name the packages... it would have caused far less problems if they had just called the skill package A and Attribute package B instead. But as has been said, there is no discounting in any of the packages - they are just pre-calculated arrays of attribute and skill levels and weather they are called Tier 1, 2 or 3 has nothing to do with the Tier of the campaign you might be running.

In the English rules you will probably have to take lower Tier skill and/or Attribute packages compared to the campaign Tier if you play one of the more powerful race/archetype combos like Tactical Spacemarines or Eldar Pathfinders but be fine using them as is for Human Priests.

In the German version you could probably afford to take the same Tier Skill and Attribute packages but would have a ton of left over points unless you play a powerful Race/Archetype, or more likely you might use the Tier 3 German skill package for your Tier 2 Guardsman.

I am guessing that the German version came out after the English and more than one person felt they had to be able to use the same Tier Attribute and Skill packages as the campaign Tier so they 'solved' the problem by making those packages weak enough that you could use them with all the Race/Archetype combos... really the better solution would have been to call them something other than Tiers that they used for the Campaign power levels and thus make it more clear that they are just pre-priced bundles that do not actually correspond to the campaign Tiers very much.
I find it quite extraordinary that the German version isn't simply a translation, but that the translators saw fit to change the rules.

Anyway this particular issue has run its course. The rules are as they are so I will have to make do.
 

Stork!

Wish I was a hippo.
RPGnet Member
Validated User
#79
I'm a little confused. I don't have the book and am just an interested observer.
Is this what seems to be going on:
English version: There's some prebuilt packages you can drop in that spend points for you. The points are spent correctly according to the rules but are more than you can really afford where they are suggested.
German version: There's some prebuilt packages you can drop in that spend points for you. The points are spent correctly according to the rules and spend fewer points then the English version.
Is that about right? There's no actual change to game rules? Just the amount of points in the sample packages are tweaked slightly? Or have I misunderstood the discussion here?
 

Neaden

Registered User
Validated User
#80
Basically correct. When you make a character you choose a background that provides some benefits. These backgrounds have varying point costs so a suggested skill and attribute array that works for one background might not work for another.
 
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